Last updated: 24 May 2020 (Now with 13.5 years of hindsight!)
Perhaps you, or somebody for whom you care, is considering joining the Navy’s “NUclear Propulsion Officer Candidate (NUPOC)” program. You might already have heard the recruiters promising the world. I will provide you with one objective critique of the “nuke” experience in terms of what the Navy promises versus what it delivers.
Author and Army veteran John T. Reed inspired me to write this with his article, “Should you go to, or stay at, West Point?” Mr. Reed’s observations about the Army are utterly relevant to the Navy. He offers a lot of valuable insight into military leadership and the general value of military service.
At the age of 20, I committed to serve in the U.S. Navy via the NUPOC delayed commissioning program. I attended OCS a month after graduating from college, received a commission as an ensign (O-1), served on active duty for 5.5 years, and honorably left active duty as a lieutenant (O-3). I worked on a Los Angeles class fast attack submarine for about 3 years of my active duty experience, which included a deployment to the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean in 2003 in support of the United States’ invasion of Iraq. The rest of my time was training and shore based work (a.k.a. “shore tour”).
Along the way, I qualified as a “Nuclear Engineer Officer,” and my last at-sea commanding officer formally recommended me for “Department Head.” This indicates that I was deemed sufficiently competent to continue in the Navy on a trajectory towards command at sea, had I chosen to do so.
My following analysis of what the Navy nuclear program promises to do for you is based on claims presented on the Navy’s recruiting websites and my personal recollections of interacting with recruiters. If you are thinking about going the enlisted route, my comments should generally still be relevant, although I highly recommend speaking with veteran enlisted nukes. Give no weight to second hand information from spouses and mothers or to promises coming from people still in the military about what service in the program will do for them after they get out. The latter category includes military recruiters and ROTC staff.
Note that nukeworker.com and nupocaccessions.blogspot.com are full of Navy recruiters. A former recruiter who commented on this article a few times is the author of the latter.
The Short Version
Here’s the punchline in advance in case you’re pressed for time:
Question: “Should you join the nuclear Navy?”
Answer: “Probably not.” (This is Mr. Reed’s answer to, “Should you go to . . . West Point?” It is also a wonderfully concise and appropriate answer to the above question.)
Join the nuclear Navy, or any military branch, if you want to have that experience for its own sake. Otherwise, even if military service would not be “lost time” for you, it probably would not be the path of least resistance to your goals, and the opportunity cost is exceptionally high.
The Sales Pitch vs. Reality
Claim: The Navy’s nuclear program is an elite nuclear engineering program.
FALSE. You will not research or design anything while in the Navy, which is contrary to what the word engineering implies to a student. The recruiters technically aren’t lying because the broader, post-academic use of engineering includes what nukes actually do, but the recruiters know they are misleading you.
The Navy will train you to be a nuclear operator. If you want to be a nuclear engineer, get a relevant engineering degree, and go to work for a reactor manufacturer, such as General Electric or Westinghouse.
The program is not as selective as recruiters advertise. Actual acceptance percentages vary by year, but they are generally above 80%. I interviewed with the Director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion, a four star admiral, with a group of around 20 people, and the admiral only declined one interviewee.
Claim: Naval Nuclear Power School is equivalent to graduate level education in [whatever].
MEANINGLESS. Some employers prefer graduate degrees for certain positions. You either have one, or you don’t. If you don’t, your resume goes in the “do not interview” stack.
APPLES-TO-ORANGES. My Power School classmate, who has a bachelors degree in nuclear engineering, described the Navy curriculum as “hella-watered-down.” The Navy provides vocational training for nuclear operation, and the primary trait necessary to excel is the capacity for rapid, verbatim memorization and subsequent quick recall of technical documents. This is a sharp contrast with my graduate school experience, where I used my creativity and conceptual understanding to solve open-ended problems.
Claim: Excitement!!! Being a Navy nuke/submariner is soooo exciting!!!!
FALSE. There is no glory or excitement in nuclear operation. It is utterly monotonous, repetitive, and mind-numbing. In the nuclear world, boring is good.
A typical shift (“standing watch”) involves prolonged sitting, staring at meters and gauges, reviewing logs of those instruments’ indications, listening to people complain about the Navy, listening to people discuss what they will do when they get out of the Navy, listening to people complain about other people on the ship, and little more.
Your recruiter might tell you this is purely a matter of opinion. It isn’t. If you don’t believe me, ask other veterans. This experience is in no way unique to me or my former submarine.
At sea, you will stand watch for 6 hours at a time, have 12 (while you lack seniority) or 18 (when you have seniority) hours off watch during which you will eat, train, and sleep, and then you will repeat the cycle. Ship-wide activities, such as casualty drills or cleaning marathons (“field day”), that require everybody to be up will sometimes disrupt your sleep schedule.
In port, you will fill out a lot of paperwork related to maintenance, train, and “stand duty” every 3 to 5 days. On duty days, you will sleep on the ship. Plan on working 6 days a week in port.
Such is life as long as you are attached to a submarine. During the 33 months I was assigned to a submarine, I spent about a year, in aggregate, actually under water. Most of that was the deployment.
Claim: Serve your country! You will do important work that makes the nation and world safer.
If you join the military, you will certainly be told frequently that this statement is true. However, it is HIGHLY DEBATABLE.
The propaganda about service to country is patriotic nonsense. The military serves the President of the United States and, by proxy, the agenda of entrenched power brokers. If you are seriously considering joining the military, your interests are probably not aligned with the interests of entrenched powers.
As a “War on Terror” veteran, I emphatically recommend reading War is a Racket, written by a two-times Medal of Honor recipient, before you sign any contracts.
Claim: Fast-track your civilian career! You will be highly desirable to industry after you leave the military.
If you want to go into one of the civilian occupations common for former nukes (more on this later), Navy nuclear service might be a parallel path to those occupations. Otherwise, you are probably just sacrificing 5+ years of civilian industry experience, which is a very high opportunity cost for somebody right out of school.
Some companies, such as General Electric, have recruiting pipelines for former military officers. Note that I write “military officers” generally; not “Navy nuke officers” in particular. The suggestion that employers will crawl over each other to hire you because you were in the nuke program is unequivocally FALSE. Employers look for directly relevant experience on your resume. If it isn’t there—and it probably isn’t if you’re trying to do something dissimilar from what you did in the military—you will most likely not be interviewed.
Many transitioning and veteran military officers attend hiring conferences organized by military-to-corporate recruiting firms like Orion International and Lucas Group. Most of the jobs on offer to ex-officers are entry/mid-manager positions in some kind of production/manufacturing environment at a large company. (As on a submarine, your job would be to manage technicians who keep equipment running.) As of early 2011, the last time I explored these offerings, most pay in the range of $55k-$85k annually. That’s nothing you can’t get with a technical degree and 5 years in civilian industry. For the most desirable degrees, you can exceed that pay range right out of college. I’m sure the pay range has shifted upwards since 2011, but that’s also true for the most desirable degrees pay.
As an ex-nuke officer or qualified senior enlisted person, you can immediately make six-figures at a commercial nuclear plant, but your life will be similar to how I described life on a ship–long, monotonous hours. If you want to climb the operations ladder at a civilian nuclear generating station, the Navy is one path to consider, but it is not the only path.
If you’re specifically interested in nuclear, I recommend learning about the commercial nuclear industry before you make any decisions about joining the Navy. Explore opportunities with names like “plant operator,” “auxiliary operator,” and “non-licensed operator.” These are synonyms for the people who actually operate equipment in a commercial plant (as opposed to the NRC-licensed operators in the control room).
Claim: Become a leader of men! You will gain valuable leadership experience at a young age.
UPDATE 4 January 2020: Given my desire to keep this article objective, and given that “leadership” is inherently subjective, I have decided I will break out this section into a separate article for a more thorough treatment. I’m not sure when it will be ready. It’s not high on my priority list.
THE NAVY WILL MAKE YOU A SUPERVISOR. John Reed writes at length about military “leadership.” If you read nothing else that he wrote, read that section. I’m not sure I agree with his assertion that leaders are born and cannot be made, but he nails it when he discusses the military’s emphasis on “form over substance” and “process over results.” I also recommend reading this article by Dilbert author and cartoonist Scott Adams.
The Navy delivered on its promise of putting me in charge of people at a young age. However, what I learned, mostly by trial and error, was the art of supervision. Junior submarine officers are supervisors, not leaders. There’s some value in that experience, but it isn’t what the recruiters are selling.
Enlisted caveat: While this is a benefit for young officers, it is a detriment for enlisted nuclear submarine sailors. Supervising reactor plant operations is primarily the role of the officers lowest in rank and seniority. This means that enlisted nuclear personnel constantly have to deal with the least experienced officers to get anything accomplished.
Every aspect of submarine life transpires according to written instructions. The “Plan of the Day” and the watch bill tell you where to be and what to do. Officers stand supervisory watches, but they are still slaves to the schedule. Given that reality, nobody leads much of anything in the same manner that a first-line supervisor in a factory has no authority to alter the production line; he just keeps it running.
After a while, I felt like a glorified secretary. Most of my lessons about leadership occurred from analyzing my own mistakes while observing copious examples of “what not to do.”
This is another area where your recruiter is likely to tell you that I am merely expressing my opinion or otherwise respond ad hominem. I suggest that you gather input from veteran enlisted submarine sailors. Ask some lifers, and ask some guys who got out after their first or second enlistment.
Claim: Driving a surfaced submarine is an amazing experience.
TRUE. My best Navy memory is of the time I stood “Surfaced Officer of the Deck” as we approached Australia. The weather was great, and the water was calm. The continent was rising up in front of me. I hadn’t been qualified to do this for very long but, at that moment, it was just me, another guy serving as my lookout, and the $900M warship upon which I sat.
If only these types of things had occupied more than about 0.12% (literally) of my total time in the military . . . (sigh).
Claim: See the world!
NOT GUARANTEED. This is a crap shoot. When I deployed in 2003, the political climate did not favor visiting many ports. Submarines also have special needs that prevent them from visiting some ports where surface ships or non-nuclear ships are free to dock.
In general, I recommend against joining any branch of the military to “see the world.” If you have the resources, check out the Semester at Sea. You will visit more of the world in a few months than you will visit in a decade of military service.
Claim: The pay and benefits are good.
COMPARED TO WHAT? See the monthly basic, food, housing, and submarine duty payments for commissioned officers to determine what the military would pay you. Then visit Payscale, Glassdoor, BLS, O*Net, or a similar site to see what private industry is likely to pay you for your chosen occupation.
My income was guaranteed, and the NUPOC program allowed me to exit college with zero debt and money in the bank. I’m very thankful for that. College debt is a serious problem for many 20- and even 30-somethings these days.
The Post-9/11 GI-Bill is an excellent benefit which I used to complete a Master of Science degree at a private university with no money out of my pocket. However, keep in mind that many large companies offer tuition reimbursement as a benefit. I could have completed multiple graduate degrees on a part time basis during the years I was in the Navy, and I would have gained relevant work experience at the same time. Instead, I became I full time graduate student in my 30s and sacrificed another 1.5 years of income.
Common Ex-Nuke Career Paths
If I had to label one thing recruiters say or imply as the “big lie,” it would be the notion that being a nuke is some kind of career booster or “stepping stone.” Over the years, I’ve looked up numerous shipmates and former Power School classmates (henceforth, “peers”) on sites like LinkedIn and Facebook, and I’ve noted that their careers often follow one of four paths:
- Commercial electricity generation (usually nuclear) or something closely related
- Supervisor in some kind of production facility
- Business development role at a large corporation after completing a MBA degree or entering some kind of veteran-specific rotational training program (like the GE program linked above in my article)
- Something completely different after completing one or more non-MBA graduate degrees
These categories are for people who are not career Navy. Literally all of the senior/career officers with whom I interacted during my years of service (commanding officers, squadron officials, etc.) who I have been able to find online are working as program managers for military contractors.
Note something common to all four paths–not a single one requires military service.
Group 1: Commercial Generation and Related
Nearly half the peers I surveyed fall into this category. This is true more often for my former enlisted peers, but many former officers are working at nuclear generating stations too. Some of my enlisted peers work as technicians at non-nuclear generating stations. I found one (enlisted) who works as an electrical grid operator and another (officer) who sells nuclear fuel. A couple of my training classmates work at INPO, the nuclear industry’s self-regulation/training/evaluation agency.
The Navy is well represented in commercial nuclear, but you can also just get a job working at a nuclear plant directly out of school if that is your prerogative.
Group 2: Production Supervisors
These jobs are on offer through military-to-corporate recruiters, who run hiring conferences that are well attended by current and recently separated junior military officers.
Group 3: Business Development
One of my peers completed a MBA at a prestigious school and got an energy business development role. Another joined a rotational program at a large company and works on the business side of oil and gas exploration. The man I relieved for “shore tour” completed a MBA at a different prestigious school and went to work at a food and beverage conglomerate.
If you see recruiting materials talking about nukes getting non-energy corporate executive jobs because the employer “just knew they could do it,” the real reason is because the service member followed this path. The employer hired the MBA; not the nuke.
Group 4: Completely Different
People in this category generally use their G.I. Bill benefits. One of my peers got a law degree, briefly worked as a lawyer, and then got a M.S. in computer science. Another got a PhD in finance. Yet another got a PhD in astronomy.
I’m in group 4. After years of self-employment, I started looking to work for other people again and discovered that I could only get interviews for group 1 and 2 jobs. After a couple of those, I went back to school full-time, completed a masters in computer science in 2014, and now work as a software engineer.
My original undergraduate majors were computer science and math, but I dropped the former after entering NUPOC in order to graduate a semester early. Therefore, in 2014, I came full circle to where I would have been in 2001 had I just avoided the military. My experience is that I’m dramatically more employable with a M.S. in computer science than I ever was trying to get hired with ex-nuke credentials, and the jobs for which I’m qualified are more interesting to me.
Your recruiters might tell you that the information in this section is purely anecdotal, and they would be correct by definition. However, here in the real world, people who ignore obvious trends like this often do so to their own detriment. Former police officers become security guards; former reporters work for public relations firms. Your current job is highly predictive of your next job. It isn’t rocket science.
Odds and Ends
Military service likely will change your personality. Socially, the military is the ultimate bro culture. It is exactly like a college fraternity, for whatever good or bad you associate with those organizations.
Almost nobody really cares where you went to school. Don’t assume substantial debt for school. If you’re not trying to work on Wall Street or at a top tier consulting or law firm, your in-state public university is probably good enough.
If you go nuke, go NUPOC. It’s a much better deal than ROTC or the Naval Academy.
ROTC staff are undisclosed nuke recruiters. I know this because I explored being an ROTC officer for my shore tour, and the incumbent told me.
Mental health issues, including suicides, and sexual assault against women are common in the military.
Conclusion
Join the nuclear Navy if you want to experience submarine/military service for its own sake. It probably won’t turbocharge your civilian career, and the idea that the military churns out great leaders is tenuous, at best. (Read John Reed’s leadership article!)
Keep in mind that money is only one factor you should consider. Military personnel tend to work very long hours. For much of my time in the Navy, I would have been happier to work half the time for half the money. How much is your life worth?
Also keep in mind that recruiters love to play up the mystique of the Silent Service. I asked my recruiter why he received some of his ribbons, and he informed me that they were for, “going certain places and doing certain things.” He wasn’t being glib–submarine operations are classified. But don’t assume that something is interesting just because it’s classified. My first Top Secret brief was three hours long, and I had to stand up and smack myself in the back of the head repeatedly to stay awake.
I hope you find this helpful. If you have any questions, you’re welcome to post them in the comments, but please first determine if I have already answered your question in the FAQ or in the comments for somebody else.
In conclusion, here’s a satirical video from The Onion that demonstrates exactly what the military is really like. It’s about the Army, but the Navy is the same (minus the combat).
FAQ
My GPA is X.XX, and [these are my life circumstances]. Will I get accepted to NUPOC?
I don’t know. If you think NUPOC is right for you, apply, and don’t worry about it. If you get rejected, you will not have lost anything.
What about the instructor and Naval Reactors pipelines?
I am not the best person to ask because I didn’t experience those paths.
Postscript – An Appeal
If you find this article useful, please share it, and post links to it on relevant forums. That will help it to remain among the top internet search engine results for “NUPOC” in spite of all the Navy’s “sponsored links” buying their way to the head of the line.
Please report broken links.
Hey Dave,
I just stumbled onto this gem while looking into NUPOC. I do not know if you still respond to comment, but here goes. I am a Sophomore engineering and physics major in college with goals of working in the nuclear engineering field. My two paths would be the Navy (enlisting as an officer) or grad school. I stumbled on the NUPOC program and was wondering what your thoughts or anyone’s might be.
Hi, Hank. I seem to have missed your comment. Sorry about the delayed response.
How are the Navy and graduate school your only paths? Have you looked for internships at any of the companies that operate nuclear facilities?
Hi Dave,
Enlisted, MM, served on a CGN for 52 months, ‘81-‘85, two summers at “Gonzo Station”, earned an Expeditionary Medal and a couple of sea service ribbons.
Agree with your observations, in particular, the conversations that happen while watch standing.
The experience is different for enlisted men. With no money or family resources the Navy was the way out of a dead end town. Making it through the program taught me I could learn and do anything I set my mind too. I went to College after – BSME. But I did have a rough time at Nuc School, being young, stubborn, and immature I found myself on M-30 extra hours for the entire 6 months. I was in the school building about 70 hours a week.
For someone with a high school diploma, Nuc School courses are significant – learning reactor theory right out of high school.
The duty for sure is rough, mind numbing, demanding, and demeaning at times for everyone. It depends on who the boss is both for officers and enlisted. You are on a war ship and the job is to be at the front – far away places. It’s like prison with a whole lot of responsibility. All of this being said, I did love operating the plant, controlling steam and the machines, high speed maneuvers, and after becoming Engine Room Supervisor teaching, and showing the new men the ropes.
One difference between the Officer/Enlisted onboard experience is enlisted stand many different watches with increasing responsibility vs the EOOW that sits in the EOS. The officers watch, we do.
During my time the ship also went through an 18 month complex overhaul – an opportunity to take the plant apart, see how it all works, reassemble and test the systems.
So for me it was a trade off, 6 years is a-lot of time. It was just about a fair trade. I learned about myself, and gained the confidence to get myself a college education – getting the engineering degree was easier. It was a good start. And I did see the world, we were the first ship to circumnavigate the globe since WWII.
Thanks Dave, hope this information is helpful to others.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Richard.
Hi Dave,
It’s me again… And I am here to update my situation from last time, as well as provide a progress report for those who might deem my situation as useful information in the future.
So I just finished my MEPS and it turns out that I require 2 medical waivers. Those waivers are hard to get as well (Anxiety… etc) However, my liaison told me they can most likely get it for me and send me to DC. During the downtime, I am having doubts about joining. During the process of NUPOC application, I’ve also landed a decent job that pays me $70k right out of college (signed contract, drug screened already) starting in early 2023. This company offers par benefits if not almost better than the military. 401k + 20 days paid vacations right off at the start.
I think the reason I’m continuing in this journey is my ego, but the other side of me tells me that I might regret it after I get into the program (If I even get in that is. As of now I haven’t even gotten my first phone interview yet). However, by committing to the program, I am basically forfeiting the great job opportunity that I got. According to my peers, if I stay with my Engineering job, at the 4 years mark I would be making at least 90k annually.
I think I am being stupid right now and trying to do too much. If I don’t get in to the military I would use the next 5 years to get my master’s degree and pass my FE exam, but I see a lots of people that got into the military as officers in general make as much money as me in the next 5 years (not sure if it’s true)….
I guess I just have this feeling of FOMO (fear of missing out) on the experience of being in the military…
What do you think I should do in my situation?
Thanks
Hello again, John. I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. Even if you would make as much money in the military–and I highly doubt that, but check the pay scale I’ve linked from my article–you would work twice as many hours in the military for that money. I advise anybody in your situation to listen to their doubt and take the civilian job. If you hate it after a couple of years, you can still join the military.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the article. First please let me provide some context: this will be my last semester as an undergrad in Mechanical Engineering (GPA of 3.35), I don’t have any college debts (Everything was paid for by grants) Funny story: I wanted to join the Air Force as an enlisted right after high school (I was in the JROTC (AF) in HS), but my mom called me stupid and told me to get a degree and then join as an officer. Fast forward 1.578e+8 seconds and numerous failed classes retakes + sleepless nights later, I’m finally at the edge of graduating. Not to mention, I’ve already got an internship experience under my belt with a local company. Around my 2nd year in college I also got invited to MSFC by NASA (NCAS) for a 7-day experience, everything paid for.
Recently, I was introduced to the NUPOC program by the Navy Officer Recruiters at my college. I’ve already signed all the papers works but have yet to get my Technical Interviews (Phone), not even MEPS yet. And yes, I am still at an early stage. Even before reading your post, I did a lot of research on the: Acceptant rates (DC interviews), OCS, Life as a Navy Officer, etc, I know that the US right now is having trouble recruiting especially the Navy with their SWOs.
I understand that OCS is going to be hell and that life at sea can be boring. I also know that they are overhyping the program in general. Despite all of those, I still felt the urge to join, to explore the unknown, and to experience the “suffering”, I guess, lol. A thing about me is that I’m a very open-minded person and I have a high tolerance for “sensitivity” (“sensitive” as in “Nowadays America is more sensitive than ever”), which means that I don’t really get picky or become cynical. Perhaps that’s why I have the urged to join the military (Even right out of Highschool). And yes, I do know that recruiters gov. military or civilian corporations alike tend to overhype the job in the description, but in fact, the candidate is doing nothing more than paperwork and staring at the computer monitor for 8 hours straight. For example, the NASA experience was nothing more than making a toy Mars Rover using Lego Mindstorm (They made it sound so Hi-Tech and “powerful” like the real mission). However, the team of people that I got to work with during that trip was exceptional, one of the best teams I’ve ever been on. For the first time, I actually enjoy working and hope that the 7-day can become 7 years and actually doing real missions rather than some children’s toy that I can get off Amazon.
As for my life goal, what do I want in life? It is really simple, I just want a family, a stable job, a Masters’s Degree (in ME) (because I want to learn more about Engineering also for my own Ego) and to live comfortably with many PTOs so I can get to travel the world. As an Engineer, I can give a shit less about if I’m actually doing real engineering work or not, as long as I get my paycheck. Hell, I would even be a Mechanical Engineer and serve coffee for $85k/yr. YUP, I said it, but that’s just me, everyone is different.
In the end, if I didn’t get accepted, I have tons of options as well, so I’m not losing anything, and hey, at least I get a free gov. background check and a free tour down in San Diego. But I hope I get in haha!
Anyway, I will reply with more updates and questions! I’m going to keep my identity classified for now so that I’m not jeopardizing my chance of getting in =)
However, now it comes down to my questions for you:
1. Why did you join the Navy, knowing that it’s going to be hell? At what point you realized you’ve F*ed yourself over and wish you haven’t joined?
2. Just to clarify, I am not a genius, and given the 80% chance of acceptance once one reached the DC interview stage I can assume it’s very likely for me to get in? And yes, I’m asking for comfort =), but please also be real with me. =) From what I’ve seen, some of the interview questions are not fresh to me and can be a curve ball.
3. Should I do surface or Sub? I feel like I’m ok with both, but as you know and probably experienced this already, “feel” and “reality” is a completely different things. I might feel good now but later on, in the Sub, I might get buzzkill. (probably already answer my own questions, but I still feel the need to get your feedback)
Hi, John. I think you will be offered admission into the program as long as you don’t throw up your hands at the interview and say, “I don’t know!” and don’t navel gaze in the presence of the admiral. I have no opinion on surface vs. subs. You might visit more ports on a surface ship, but that’s not guaranteed.
I joined the Navy after my sophomore year of undergrad to pay for my bachelors degree, and I knew with certainty by day 15 of OCS that I had made the wrong decision for me. I suspected before I graduated from college that this would be the case.
This experience is what I missed in the military. Maybe some of my former coworkers would have wowed me, and vice-versa, had we had opportunities to engage in creative problem solving, but that is not what most people do in the military. It’s definitely not what nukes do. There’s a routine. You follow it. Then you do it again tomorrow.
Hello Dave, I am currently in OCS for a SWO(N) position. Some background on me, I graduated with a double major in mechanical and aerospace engineering from a decent engineering school (Case Western Reserve University). I joined NUPOC when I was a sophomore in college almost 2.5 years ago. At the time it seemed like a great idea: get paid, boost my career, interesting job, etc. I actually read this blog the night before I went to DC 2.5 years ago and almost didn’t go.
That being said, I’m currently freaking out. Everything you have laid out is starting to feel like a reality and I feel that I have completely done myself over. I also have no chance of being able to leave the program, I must do my 5-6 year commitment. Thinking about this on top of OCS stress is giving me constant panic attacks. I feel like I committed to a program that is going to destroy me. What advice do you have for someone like me?
It won’t destroy you, Jake, but you will have to play catch-up after you get out if you want to do something different. The most important thing you can do for the next few years is to focus on doing well in the training pipeline and obtaining your warfare qualification. Those will have the biggest near-term consequences for your quality of life.
If I could deliver a message to my 22 years old self going through OCS, it would be to start planning my transition out of the Navy much sooner. Anytime after OCS, start looking periodically at job listings at companies where you might want to work. What are the requirements for job titles that interest you? If you don’t meet them, how can you obtain those skills? Do you need additional education? If so, take the GRE/LSAT/GMAT/etc. at your earliest convenience if you think you need a graduate degree. Don’t wait until you’re out of the Navy. Check out free education, like Coursera and EdX.org.
Where are the jobs you might want? This might influence your preferred home port, which you will elect while in the training pipeline. I would advise younger me to choose a home port in the continental U.S. (I chose Hawaii) for the easier access to future employers and because it would have been easier to meet and maintain relationships with people who are unaffiliated with the military, including my family. I would have been home for holidays more frequently. The military is an extremely insular environment–“cult-like” isn’t unfair, in my opinion–and maintaining relationships with civilians will help to keep you grounded. Personal connections are also a common means of getting a job.
The Navy is going to cultivate you to project a certain ideal of the one true “leadership.” Don’t drink too much of this Kool-Aid. There are competing philosophies, and my opinion is that the military is more reliable at churning out arrogant leaders than competent leaders. Don’t let the nuclear training pipeline convince you to act like a sarcastic asshole all the time. (You will find out what I mean by this.) This is another reason to spend time around civilians, and note that few, if any, of the job listings you are likely to read say anything about “leadership.”
Finally, keep your head up. Live beneath your means, and save as much money as you can while in the Navy. Put your stuff in storage before deployment, and don’t pay a lease while you’re deployed. Don’t buy a new car to impress anybody at work. Emerge 5-6 years from now with enough money in the bank to buy a home outright (or at least without borrowing much), and enjoy not drowning in debt. If you can do that, life will be good.
I appreciate hearing from active-duty sailors and veterans. Please revisit this article now and then. Tell me if your experience matches what I have written. I hope this helps.
Hi Jake,
“That being said, I’m currently freaking out. Everything you have laid out is starting to feel like a reality and I feel that I have completely done myself over.”
Could you please elaborate on that? I want to know if you and I were on the same boat: once were excited to get in and realized it wasn’t the case? or worse?
Much of your advice particularly applies to people who are graduating with a Bachelor’s in a lucrative field like CS or engineering. These types of degrees are valuable directly out of college, and you should have minimal issues with employability. You also seems to assume that paying for the degree in the first place is a non-issue. I’m curious if you would still say that NUPOC isn’t the best option for someone like me, who is a Chemistry major. I believe that NUPOC is the most efficient use of my degree out of any other available path.
A Bachelor’s in chemistry is hardly worth the paper it’s printed on. Without a graduate degree, I can’t expect to work anything outside of an entry level QC or lab tech job (terrible pay, long hours, no benefits). I’m more inclined to go graduate school, as I am pursuing a career in research. However, finishing my degree within a reasonable timeframe would be impossible on my own. I would need to drop to part time status and slowly inch my way towards a bachelor’s while working. Following that, the road through graduate school would be fraught with financial issues due to debt and a lack of savings.
NUPOC would make both undergrad and graduate school less financially stressful, and give me more freedom as to where I choose to attend graduate school. In the event that I become disillusioned with Chemistry and want to pursue something else, it offers better career opportunities. Given this context, are there any other paths that offer similar benefits?
Hi, Tyler. Younger me chose to attend an out-of-state university because it had a top 10 ranked program for my chosen major. I ignored my father’s admonishments that college rankings don’t really matter, and I ended up joining NUPOC to pay for the degree. Unfortunately, my father was right (imagine that), and oh boy did I pay for that degree. I’m still paying for it in the form of lost years of industry experience. Looking back now with more than 20 years of hindsight, finishing school “within a reasonable time frame” (which is exactly what I was thinking) does not merit accruing debt, and a military service obligation is a massive amount of non-monetary debt. It is a debt measured in years of your life.
I can’t tell you what is the best path for you, but I’m certain that you will not come out of the Navy with any experience relevant to your chemistry degree. Your marketable skills would be ship handling, nuclear operation, and the perception that you are a workaholic. (The latter is valuable to companies that hire ex-military as operations managers, etc.)
In the Navy, you will experience low pay (while in training, as an ensign; it does go up fairly quickly), long hours, good benefits, and little opportunity for you to do anything other than have the Navy experience. As I wrote, the opportunity cost is exceptionally high. You could separate at 27, maybe complete a PhD at 32, and then begin your “real” career with whatever practical experience you acquire during graduate school. When I was a masters student, I observed that much of what the PhD students did was menial labor (TAing classes, research assistant grunt work, etc.) while waiting around for grants to come through so they could proceed with their actual thesis work.
Or you could suffer through an entry level QC job while attending classes at night. Your employer might pay for the classes too. Maybe then you could finish your PhD before turning 30, you would have practical work experience, and you would have the opportunity to meet people in the industry. You would also get to have a life with regular work hours and the ability to choose your friends rather than being beholden to the military’s forced camaraderie.
My final thought is that your don’t need NUPOC specifically if you want the military to pay for your school. Every service member can elect to pay into the GI Bill benefits fund. If you’re set on the military, you could, for example, pursue a ROTC scholarship, and then do something in the military other than Navy nuke.
I am currently a freshman majoring in computer science wanting to pursue a career in cyber security. I already planned to go into the Navy for the experience in cryptology but was undecided whether to enlist or go to OCS for during or after I get my bachelor’s degree. I joined NUPOC in my freshman year to see if going into the Nuclear field would be easier to transition into cryptology. I’ve asked officers established with the NUPOC program giving me varying answers on the likelihood of me being able to transfer to cryptology after I finish my first contract, with one being a “9/10 chance” of rejecting my request to a “maybe you can transfer”.
Later in my freshman year, I visited a recruiter, recommending that I enlist during my time in college in order to join reserves as a CTN while I complete my degree then I could try to become an officer after I graduate. However, I would have to miss a semester or two of college in order to finish boot camp and School A. Though NUPOC deals with nuclear propulsion and energy are it worth staying in NUPOC to pursue cryptology in the Navy or should I go a different route?
Everything you wrote gives me the impression you have already been lied to extensively. If you’re interested in cryptology or cyber warfare, see what the NSA has to offer, including paid internships (intelligencecareers.gov). If you are interested in applied cyber security, you will have a lot more freedom and better pay if you go the civilian route.
Navy “crypto” personnel are not code breakers in the academic sense. They are operators, like most other Navy personnel. My submarine occasionally had crypto guys ride to facilitate data collection. Maybe they knew how to use certain tools–created by other people with much deeper education and experience–to analyze the data, but they’re not writing code. They’re not digging into math journals for inspiration. Their job is to operate collection equipment.
Joining NUPOC when you want to do something else is folly. Enlisting when you want to be an officer is folly. Recruiters have quotas, and they don’t care what’s best for you. Just say “no.”
With the nuclear program now offering a 40k bonus incentive for signing up, would you consider it worth it via the enlisted route?
Hi, George. I don’t think the amount of the bonus is dispositive in isolation. Whatever you do, you’re paying the opportunity costs of not doing something else. If you don’t join the Navy, what will you do?
My plan is to go into an EECS (Electrical Engineering and Computer Science) or similar degree plan. I am a high school student with an associates degree equivalent (58 college credits graduating this semester). However, educational costs are my biggest concern. How would you have gone to school without use of your G.I. Bill?
I would have used loans mostly. I’ve generally avoided telling anybody what they should do–maybe you would love the Navy–but your situation seems cut and dry to me. You’re already half way to a bachelors while in high school? Take the loans. Go in state. I’m assuming from your IP address that you live in Texas. UT Austin is well regarded and has excellent local employment prospects. Maybe get a part time job, and apply for need based financial aid. You can pay off those loans easily with a job as an electrical engineer or programmer. Unless you’re interested in the military for its own sake, don’t waste your time. Sure, the Navy will pay you $40k up front to enlist, but then you’ll get paid much less for the next 6 years than you would be getting in civilian industry.
If loans aren’t an option, maybe consider trade school. Work as an electrician, get paid, and go to school part time.
Great article thanks, I’m a 31 year old civilian about to submit package for ocs for either swo, supply or intel. My recruiter says I don’t have much chance for intel, so now it’s either swo which from what I’ve read is high stress and high dropout rate or supply which uses my degree of finance more. I took this article with a grain of salt since it was about NUPOC, but then I read Raymond’s comment below and it’s got me questioning my why for joining, which was to say I served in the best military in the world and also for the experience of leading, traveling, and set me up for post military life with education or opportunities for high paying civilian job. Submitting my package next month, highly motivated, but I’m assuming the motivation (even if it’s intrinsic) will vanish faster than my enthusiasm for joining. Any general advice on if you think I’m crazy for wanting to join the Navy?
Hi, Jorge. I’m currently picking up a second masters degree before my GI Bill benefits expire late next year. The education benefits are pretty great. That’s one area–probably the only area–in which I have no complaints, but please note my comment in the article about employer-funded education. I worked in finance for a bit, and the perks were much better than anything you will ever get in the military.
Remember that recruiters have quotas. If you want intel, apply to intel. If they decline you, maybe apply to something else. Don’t let the recruiter steer you away. He or she has an agenda.
If you go SWO, your peer group mostly will consist of a bunch of people in their early and mid 20s, and your boss will be your age or not much older. None of them will have much life experience outside of school and the Navy. I cannot speak with authority about supply or intel, but my educated guess is that there would be more people in those communities with outside experience. That’s a good thing in my book.
In general, I think everything I wrote in my article about “leadership,” travel, and civilian opportunities applies to those other paths. Given your stated motivation, I would bet that the military would greatly disappoint you. I could be wrong about everything. I hope you will let me know what you decide and, if you join, come back and comment once you’ve been in for a few years.
I am a PhD physicist working at a DOE national laboratory, so I believe that I have a unique perspective. In general, the nuclear power industry seems to be in serious decline. It’s a Cold War era technological innovation that is now becoming obsolete and archaic as safer, cheaper, and more efficient renewable energy technologies are being developed. In the civilian world, most nuclear power plants have already been scheduled for decommissioning within the next 2 decades, and very few are scheduled for construction in the next 10 years. All that is to say that the skills that you would acquire as an SWO(N) are not very transferable to the civilian world. If you have an engineering degree, then your time and talents would be better spent doing actual engineering in a more vibrant sector… Pretty much the only thing remotely interesting happening with nuclear fission right now is the new collaborative NASA and DOE project to engineer a nuclear reactor that can function on the moon. Other than that, the nuclear fission industry is stagnant and destined to eventually be phased out. On another note, the future of nuclear is fusion, which is still in the preliminary R&D stages in government and academic labs. Still, it remains that the experience that you would gain in the nuclear navy would be irrelevant to an eventual (and theoretical) nuclear fusion industry. I believe that you should do what you love… but I also believe that it is important to keep up with market and industry trends when you are deciding on a vocation. Your time in the US navy may be great, but if you have aspirations outside of the navy, consider how your experience will best prepare you for the civilian job market. Most importantly, don’t get sold a lie by these recruiters. Do your own research.
Hi, Anthony. I think the nuclear generating stations operating in the United States are all 2nd generation design. Do you have any experience with 3rd and 4th generation nuclear? If the reality meets the hype, the newer designs could be viable.
I’ve been hearing hype about next gen nukes since the 70s with Jerry Pournelle. Now we’re 50 years down the track. Where are the pebble bed, thorium, blablabla stuff we were promised? If they aren’t getting built, then don’t buy the hype. Especially with how bad the hype has been over the years.
P.s. An oldie but goodie: http://ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/Rickover.pdf
That was a quality letter from Rickover. Thanks for sharing it.
Four years ago I read this…as I was preparing to head off to OCS, wondering “Is this really what I have to look forward to?” And four years later, I can strongly say “Yes”. Talk about years of my life I will never get back. I cant wait to get as far away from the Submarine force, Navy, and military as I can. All I’ve learned is how much I regret signing the dotted line and agreeing to become a Sub Nuke. I’m at PNEO right now and all I think is “why on earth am I having to do this when I have literally zero intention of becoming a Department Head”. Getting to spend my entire tour so far in a Shipyard really doesnt help the situation…literally the worst experience and decision of my life so far. All summarized by: Years I will never get back. Wasted working a mind numbing job at the mercy of whatever XO, ENG, etc they throw at you. Getting called in at 2100, getting shit for not qualifying fast enough when I’ve literally never been underway. My piece of advice to anyone considering this: if you really want to know what it’s like to hate your life then come on down. I only wish i would’ve avoided this like the plague. All in all, horrible experience.
Hang in there, Raymond! I heard stories about the shipyard but was fortunate never to experience it. If there’s a silver lining to my Navy experience, other than the GI Bill, it’s that ever since I’ve had more appreciation for the simple freedoms I had before joining. Have you given serious thought yet to what you will do after you separate?
Hi Dave,
Outstanding article, thank you so much for taking the time to relate your experience. I am an ROTC undergrad going into my senior year, and intending to go the submarine route (my interview with the folks at NR is coming up this August). Although I don’t have the experience to decide now, I’m leaning more toward getting out after five years.
Just wanted to ask, how long were you out on deployment during those initial five years, minus the 1 spent at Charleston (my home town, lol)? I desire to raise a family, but I know that time away is going to be a challenge. Secondly, do you have any tips for how I can plug myself in the private sector after leaving the military? I’m considering using the post-9/11 GI Bill for a graduate degree in materials science or something technical, but might need to do some research in how those benefits exactly work.
Thanks in advance!
Hi, Devyn. I spent about a year, in aggregate, out to sea, including one 7.5 months deployment. I served on a fast attack submarine, and I’m not sure how fast boats and boomers compare with respect to aggregate sea time.
I’ve had 3 jobs since I finished graduate school. For the first two, I was referred by an employee. One was a guy I know from the gym; the other, a guy I know from a meetup.com group of mutual interest. I got my third job by applying online. In general, who you know is very important, so my best advice is probably just to meet as many civilians as you can, and tell everyone you know when you’re looking for a job.
Start looking at job listings 6-12 months before you separate to get a feel for what employers want. The military-to-corporate recruiters will start sending you letters not long after you report to your ship, and you can use their services if you like. They can definitely get you interviews [in a narrow range of industries]. Curiously, those recruiters will tell you to emphasize your “leadership” qualities, whereas you probably won’t frequently see that word in job listings.
The GI Bill pays tuition directly to schools and pays you a housing allowance while you attend. It’s pretty straightforward, and I don’t think you need to spend a bunch of time researching it. If you decide for certain that you want to go to grad. school, I suggest taking the GRE and applying while you’re still in the Navy so you can make a seamless transition. Then you can skip “shore tour,” which is touted as a good deal but is still just time you’re not building civilian industry experience. Possible exceptions include online degrees and executive MBA programs, which typically hold classes at night or on weekends.
Good luck with your NR interview.
I am thinking of joining NUPOC. But I am worried that they will not say yes to me because of my history. I want to get accepted so bad; if I were to get denied do you have any other suggestions on a program that I should join that relates to nuclear, technology etc. your suggestions can be related to anything whether that includes the military or not. Thank you.
I would start with jobs.exeloncorp.com and other commercial operator jobs sites. They offer internships, among other openings.
Hey Dave,
I am not sure if you are still active on this but I did have a question. How about the Instructors and NREs? I think the NREs are out in Washington D.C.? At least that’s what my recruiter told me.
Hi, Daniel. I’m not the best person to ask about the instructor or NR path because that is not what I experienced. Your recruiter is probably a reliable source for basic information, such as pay and benefits, although I’m certain NR personnel are not stationed only in D.C. They have field offices anywhere nuclear powered vessels are home ported.
I am thinking about joining the Navy but this article has me reassessing what I should do exactly. I have traffic violations from the past that occurred about a year part. The main charge is for driving without required license and registration. If the charges have been dropped and I did not have to pay any fines or anything will the Navy still accept me? If I explain to them that I view life in a different way now in a way I did not before will they believe me? Is there a good way to go about my situation? Also I am currently a sophomore at a university and I’m a Computer Science Major. My gpa is a 3.1 but I intend to have it at a 3.3 once I apply or if I apply. I am taking physics and calculus this summer as well. Thank you.
Jack, don’t overthink this! If you decide that NUPOC is right for you, apply, and don’t worry about it. Your circumstances are what they are. If the Navy says “no,” you will not have lost anything. Have a back-up plan. Maybe try to get some internships, and see if you enjoy working as a software engineer before you make any big life decisions.
NUPOC folks,
A socially induced question. Have somebody of those who was SWO (N)s spent a time in Reactor Dept of an CVN when Reactor DH was LDO nuke? If so, what it is like, since it’s impossible on a submarines? I.e. what is all about when the top nuke of an aircraft carrier is a man who lives with full Mustang ethos?
I graduated from the Naval Academy in 1971 and Commanded the nuclear fast attack submarine GUARDFISH (SSN 612) during the Cold War. Your view of being a submariner is just as skewed as the recruiters you attack. Recruiters from every industry are promoters. Driving a submarine is fun and exciting, running the reactor plant can be dull until you have a drill set or a real casuality. The officers i served with and got out were grateful for the experiance and the challenges. During the Cold War there were partrols near the Soviet coast and trailing Soviet submarines was exciting. I’m sure there is interaction with the Chinese today.
I appreciate your taking the time to comment, James–even if we will agree to disagree about the level of excitement to be had on a submarine. I do agree that drill sets made standing watch in the engine room go by much more quickly and, as I wrote, driving the ship on the surface is a good memory.
You’re the first career officer to comment on my article. If you would care to share, I would appreciate hearing more about your experiences after you retired. Literally every retired officer from my years of service that I have been able to find on LinkedIn is doing the exact same thing–working as a program manager for a military contractor. I have heard of others working in commercial nuclear. Did you follow either of those paths?
NOTE: According to the internet, James operates a taxi company in Virginia. This is an example of what I labelled a “Group 4” path.
I’m former Russian Navy SWO, spent most of service time on ASW frigates and corvettes, and I still have a lot of classmates who are serving in both Russian Navy surface ships and a submarines. I should tell you James that despite the feelings of “serving to my country”, evidently common for an officers and men of each national navy, the main “tactical”, daily-basis sense was rather that we all are playing the game. As if national teams of Olympic ice hockey or basketball: we need to win, the other part is doomed to lose. I.e. I, as a tactical co-ordinator, need to find the trailing German Navy diesel sub (really a hole in the water, absolutely quiet on a batteries) with no helicopter, just dipping the Bronza sonar from time to time and being sure that German sub skipper Is laughting at my awkward efforts since he hears me clear and loud. Kinda fishing a thinking salmon. A game. A sport. Having a lot of classmates still in a subs of Russian Navy, I’m pretty sure it’s still the same: we’re playing game, and that game is relatively safe – nobody will ever start the nuclear war, though it’s hard to be sure that everybody will operate safely the nuclear boilers of that numbers of submarines. Nevertheless, this is a game too.
The problem is that this kind of game is quite heavy burden for all who’s outside of the navies. Tell me please, for God’s sake, why should I pay for this game with my taxes if I personally have no interest to it anymore? And why should I support all this career people in naval uniform who’s still playing that game literally for their interest to stay in and not for “defending the nation”, which is superpower and like any other superpower is really in no war-related danger?
“Playing the game” is an analogy I heard in the U.S. Navy as well.
Analogues to a sport are clear enough, isn’t it? I think the reason for which former military officers are not especially good in sport is that they lose their very productive time in youth, spending it to a service obligations. But that same John T.Reed you have mentioned in your articles became quite good coach for school teams. This would be the third proper way for those of us who had quit or retired, no matter which country we may consider. The problem with the navies in this respect is the dark side of the main virtue, as usually – the higher degree of tech orientation in almost all naval trades, which by definition is in notable contradiction with the leadership as the majority understands it. That leadership that is in great need for sport coaching, i.e. true skills of motivation and persistence for clear result and not for risk avoidance, which the military and especially naval officers generally lack.
Your assessment is spot on to what I experienced in the NUPOC program. When I left the Navy, I felt Six years behind my counterparts. As for jobs, they were mainly entry level manufacturing type through one of the placement firms.
I would agree that if I had to choose, I would have stayed a civilian. The money was not the big driver for me but adventure was. I did get to do lots of sea time in Hawaii and Asia but not worth the crap maintaining 60’s technology.
I hold no judgment against those who make it a career but I do agree with you that military changes your personality.
I stand with an offer to graduate under-grad with around 100k in the bank after expenses with the NUPOC collegiate program if I sign the contract 30 months prior to graduation. After it is all said and done, I would averaged around 80-85k for 5 years of work before expenses – not including any promotion or raise in salary.
If I wanted to do it for just the short term money, there are offers for many tens of thousands more right out of college.
Interestingly, I am promised all the things you have mentioned above: the industry seeking us out as we near our contract expiration, traveling the world, becoming a master of leading others, it being thrilling, etc. I find that this article is the most informative and helpful opinion I could have asked for.
I was most worried about the lack of engineering involved in this job I was possibly going to sign up for. I would have liked to contribute with my electrical engineering degree in a way that could serve others and actually take full advantage of my God-given talent in some influential way. My recruiter suggested I read on a website I could not locate when I asked about how much engineering would be involved and if I would be getting a P.E. after the 4 or 5 years of service as an “engineer”- which he did not affirm in the slightest. That’s what led me to look online and find this article.
So many things could have been different even in the last hour for this one permutation of this day to not take place. Thank you for taking the time to go out of your way and write this article. This is selfless service that influences lives in an impactful way. I am so fortunate.
Finally, thank you for your service. It is important. Do not regret it. Our saving grace is a Man who died for others. Reflecting, living a life with a willingness to die for others – there are no words.
-Mark
You’re welcome, Mark. I’m glad that I could provide you with helpful information.
Hey Dave,
Thanks for sharing your experience, I found it informative. Have you spoken with anyone who went through the NUPOC program more recently? I’m curious if the program has changed at all since you completed it.
You’re welcome, Ross. My only recent interactions with Navy nuclear trainees are with commenters on this article. They give me the impression that little has changed. Given that the technology is still basically the same, that doesn’t surprise me.
Hey Dave, thanks a lot for this website. I’m a enlisted (E-5 Electrician’s Mate) in the Navy … I turned down an offer to go OCS (nuclear was what I wanted) in large part due to this website and am departing from the service in a year.
Do you know how difficult it would be to obtain a Power Plant Operator job with my background? What are the drawbacks to being a Plant Operator? It seems like a high paying, stable job.
You’re welcome, Tom. I always appreciate when somebody tells me that they found my article useful.
Your Navy experience is definitely useful for working in the energy industry, but the short answer to your question is, “I don’t know.” If you haven’t done so, perhaps look at some company job sites. For example: http://www.exeloncorp.com/careers/exelon-jobs-listings
A downside to a power plant job is that, as in the Navy, you would experience knee-jerk reactions in response to adverse interactions with the regulatory authority. You would also be standing watch, probably on some sort of rotating schedule.
It would probably pay relatively well, and the health benefits would probably be pretty good.
So my 16 year old son did very well on the ASVAB and a recruiter called a month ago to see if he would be interested in the Nuclear Engineering program. The recruiter then cut the conversation short when he realized my son was 16. My son has wanted to join the Air Force or Navy but the recruiter’s call made my son decide the Navy. Where do I go from here as a mom and what questions do I ask. Does he sign as an officer or Enlistee? Is it worth it? I am so confused but my son wants to serve and try the Nuclear thing on a sub no less.
Hi, Sonia. Nuclear-trained officers generally must have a 4-year degree. Enlisted sailors usually do not have a 4-year degree. If your son wants to attend college soon after high school and has the resources to do so, he should not enlist (no matter what the recruiter says). There are a few paths, all of which the recruiter can explain, he could follow to become an officer after college.
I’ve commented before that I would not repeat my decision to join the military, but I think the appropriate question is, “Would it be worth it to your son?” I can’t know the answer to that question, but I stand by the premise of my article–this is what he should expect if he joins.
I would ask the recruiter any questions you have about the immediate benefits of joining: how much your son would be paid during his initial obligation (base + allowances, etc.), GI Bill, medical and dental, signing bonus, etc. I would not bother asking the recruiter about anything beyond this.
Perhaps more importantly, I suggest asking your son a lot of leading questions to get to the root of why he wants to join and how, in his estimation, military service would support the life he wants to live. If it’s really about paying for college, for example, he should consider that any military service will provide him access to GI Bill benefits, and there are less painful ways to serve in the military that are likely to have more relevance to gaining civilian employment (ex. enlisted IT specialists can get civilian certifications in networking, etc.).
Full disclosure: This commenter is a Navy recruiter.
I think it’s a little skewed to assume all recruiters are liars. I’ll say that a lot of them just don’t know and there are many that don’t care and just want the sale. There are still people who tell it like it is. Shiftwork, shipyard, deployment- all of it exists. Also, NR engineers do engineering in the sense of the way that you don’t think it does. There’s also civilian careers that do design type work. Navy Recruiting command is putting money towards fixing these issues and letting people know what they’re getting into. We send them to a submarine and I’ve even had an applicant say they got buzzkilled there. I’m not going to argue whether or not it’s worth it with you, but the recruitment process is improving.
Thank you for commenting, Chief. I do not assume that all recruiters are liars. In fact, I don’t recall my recruiters saying anything explicitly false, but I do take issue with much of the misleading promotional material making unsupported claims about post-service employability and the prevalence of “engineering.”
On the other hand, more than a few of my enlisted shipmates said their recruiters lied flagrantly. I regard such experiences as an inevitable consequence of military recruiting being a high pressure sales occupation with strict quotas rather than any sort of truism about the character of recruiters.
I’m currently a young Nuke Officer in training, I’m at S8G prototype right now about 11 weeks in. When you were in my position all those years ago what was going through your head as you started to really learn more about the process of this pipeline and what exactly you’d be doing once you got to a boat?
Now just finding your post, I kind of wish I would have saw this before I decided to join. I could have asked you a few questions beforehand
…oh well.
Thanks for commenting, Raymond. I hope you’re staying ahead of the curve!
By the time I was in prototype, mostly I was just looking forward to being out of the Navy, but I still had another 4 years. I wish I had something more useful or encouraging to share with you, but the nuke experience is pretty consistent the entire way through. You’re going to go through qualifications all over again on your ship, and you will settle into the paperwork-watch-train-repeat routine I describe in my article.
If I could send a message back in time to my ensign self, I would suggest spending time during my last year on the submarine studying and sitting for the GRE (or GMAT, LSAT, etc.).
Dave, great read. As a former MM1/SS ELT (that’s enlisted nuke machinist mate, engineering lab tech for you civilians) I found your article spot on and a great source of info for anyone thinking of joining the Navy Nuclear Program. I did 10 years on two different boats, a fast attack and boomer. The boomer was a much better experience than the fast attack, but still all your points hold true. On a boomer you are at sea less, get to shower and wash your clothes more often and typically have your own rack (aka bed).
I completed my last 3 years at shore duty and Nuke RadCon at TRF Bangor, and completed my B.S. in Computer Science going to night school just before I got out in 94. When I was in there was no GI Bill, so paid for everything myself or with Pell Grants. Looking back I did everything the hard way, but it all worked out.
I think my sentiments echo your article, know what you are getting into before you join. Dave gives a great overview of the program and the service. There would be few things worse then joining for 6+ years and not being happy with why you joined. When I went in there was no internet, so your sources of info was typically the recruiters. Join for the right reasons, knowing what you are getting yourself into.
Thanks, Gary! I wish I heard from more veterans.
Thank you for setting it straight!! My daughter was an excited NUPOC all through college .. She graduated with Mechanical Engineering and went off to OCS….OCS is nothing like anyone could possibly expect…. She was told not to worry, that they wanted her brain and would fast track her…. Wrong they beat down on her no matter what she did…. Screamed that she was fat and lazy….she froze and rolled back…. She is a fighter and was all ready to give it her all in the next class…. Well now she is realizing it is not what she imagined, not what she was promised, and not something that makes her heart complete…. Beyond boot camp abuse…. And has made the very difficult decision to drop…..
OCS is not like anything anyone is told or can imagine….especially for the extremely few women there….. She will never forget this military training but now knows that it is not the track meant for her.
They really need to be more straight forward with NUPOC applicants ….she was so excited to be part of the Navy…. If they had told the honest truth then perhaps it would save those interested in being a NUPOC time and energy, and would save the government money spent selling a program and paying the applicants through college…..
I wish your daughter the best of luck in whatever comes next.
Great article and a lot different than the stories I’ve been hearing about NUPOC. Do you have any insight on going the instructor route in Charleston? I already graduated and have been working full time for 2 years as an EE but would like to be a professor. However I can’t fathom the idea of taking on more student debt. Nupoc seems like a good option to get 5 years teaching experience, decent pay, and eventually a Ph.D in a chosen field. I have coworkers that used our employers tuition reimbursement but it takes 5 years to get just a Masters (part time), they are stressed and over worked, and there is a two year commitment to the company after you graduate. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Thanks, Maxwell. Being commissioned specifically to instruct would be more like being a high school teacher than being a professor. You would not do any research, which is what separates professors in technical disciplines. I perceive your options thusly:
Option A: Commit 4-5 years to the Navy. Get out. Spend 5 years in a PhD program, during 3-4 of which you could use GI Bill benefits (which are very good). Total time: 9-10+ years. Unless Power School has relocated from South Carolina since I left, there wouldn’t be any good technical schools around where you could take classes while in the Navy.
Option B: Spend the same time going to school part time while, I presume, getting paid significantly more than the Navy will pay you. Total time: Depends on you, but probably less than a decade.
Option C: Become a full time PhD student. Total time: ~5 years. You might have some debt (graduate students usually get paid as university employees), and you would lose years of income from a “real job.”
Many PhD programs make teaching a requirement for completing the degree, so I think any experience you gain teaching in the Navy would be redundant.
I hope this helps.
Hi, Ive been considering the NUPOC program but your piece has me second guessing. I wanted to ask you though if you had contact with anyone who decided to do the Naval Reactors Engineer route. It is the one I am considering because i have heard of the monotony about the remaining three options. However, I don’t know anyone who has met a reactors engineer, so I was curious if you knew that was a crap shoot as well. Thank you.
Hi, Mackenze. I am not well acquainted with anybody who went NR, and my experience with that organization is limited to being subjected to their periodic audits of the submarine on which I served. NR is a regulatory agency. My impression is that the word engineering applies to NR primarily in the same misleading context that recruiters apply the word to NUPOC. I am also of the impression that monotony is a defining characteristic of the military in general.
I hope I’m not beating a dead horse with this, but I am a physics and math undergraduate going into my second year and am in the process of applying for the NUPOC program (going to MEPS in a couple weeks). I have a passion for what I do, and my long term goal is to obtain a PhD and go into academic research/teaching. My thoughts are that this program is not only a good way to set up financial support as well as being a unique exlerience not many in my field have as well as a good way to break up the monotony of 8+ years of schooling. Are these good reasons for going into the program or am I misled? Would this be a good use of 5+ years of my life?
Hi, Darian. Please read Timothy’s comment from 10 May 2016 and the replies. I have benefited from the Post 9-11 GI Bill, and I think it is an excellent benefit. However, I think that’s the only way military service would benefit you with respect to getting a PhD. I cannot say if joining the Navy would be a good use of your life. My only claim is that my article gives you an accurate portrayal of what you will experience if you join.