Last updated: 24 May 2020 (Now with 13.5 years of hindsight!)
Perhaps you, or somebody for whom you care, is considering joining the Navy’s “NUclear Propulsion Officer Candidate (NUPOC)” program. You might already have heard the recruiters promising the world. I will provide you with one objective critique of the “nuke” experience in terms of what the Navy promises versus what it delivers.
Author and Army veteran John T. Reed inspired me to write this with his article, “Should you go to, or stay at, West Point?” Mr. Reed’s observations about the Army are utterly relevant to the Navy. He offers a lot of valuable insight into military leadership and the general value of military service.
At the age of 20, I committed to serve in the U.S. Navy via the NUPOC delayed commissioning program. I attended OCS a month after graduating from college, received a commission as an ensign (O-1), served on active duty for 5.5 years, and honorably left active duty as a lieutenant (O-3). I worked on a Los Angeles class fast attack submarine for about 3 years of my active duty experience, which included a deployment to the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean in 2003 in support of the United States’ invasion of Iraq. The rest of my time was training and shore based work (a.k.a. “shore tour”).
Along the way, I qualified as a “Nuclear Engineer Officer,” and my last at-sea commanding officer formally recommended me for “Department Head.” This indicates that I was deemed sufficiently competent to continue in the Navy on a trajectory towards command at sea, had I chosen to do so.
My following analysis of what the Navy nuclear program promises to do for you is based on claims presented on the Navy’s recruiting websites and my personal recollections of interacting with recruiters. If you are thinking about going the enlisted route, my comments should generally still be relevant, although I highly recommend speaking with veteran enlisted nukes. Give no weight to second hand information from spouses and mothers or to promises coming from people still in the military about what service in the program will do for them after they get out. The latter category includes military recruiters and ROTC staff.
Note that nukeworker.com and nupocaccessions.blogspot.com are full of Navy recruiters. A former recruiter who commented on this article a few times is the author of the latter.
The Short Version
Here’s the punchline in advance in case you’re pressed for time:
Question: “Should you join the nuclear Navy?”
Answer: “Probably not.” (This is Mr. Reed’s answer to, “Should you go to . . . West Point?” It is also a wonderfully concise and appropriate answer to the above question.)
Join the nuclear Navy, or any military branch, if you want to have that experience for its own sake. Otherwise, even if military service would not be “lost time” for you, it probably would not be the path of least resistance to your goals, and the opportunity cost is exceptionally high.
The Sales Pitch vs. Reality
Claim: The Navy’s nuclear program is an elite nuclear engineering program.
FALSE. You will not research or design anything while in the Navy, which is contrary to what the word engineering implies to a student. The recruiters technically aren’t lying because the broader, post-academic use of engineering includes what nukes actually do, but the recruiters know they are misleading you.
The Navy will train you to be a nuclear operator. If you want to be a nuclear engineer, get a relevant engineering degree, and go to work for a reactor manufacturer, such as General Electric or Westinghouse.
The program is not as selective as recruiters advertise. Actual acceptance percentages vary by year, but they are generally above 80%. I interviewed with the Director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion, a four star admiral, with a group of around 20 people, and the admiral only declined one interviewee.
Claim: Naval Nuclear Power School is equivalent to graduate level education in [whatever].
MEANINGLESS. Some employers prefer graduate degrees for certain positions. You either have one, or you don’t. If you don’t, your resume goes in the “do not interview” stack.
APPLES-TO-ORANGES. My Power School classmate, who has a bachelors degree in nuclear engineering, described the Navy curriculum as “hella-watered-down.” The Navy provides vocational training for nuclear operation, and the primary trait necessary to excel is the capacity for rapid, verbatim memorization and subsequent quick recall of technical documents. This is a sharp contrast with my graduate school experience, where I used my creativity and conceptual understanding to solve open-ended problems.
Claim: Excitement!!! Being a Navy nuke/submariner is soooo exciting!!!!
FALSE. There is no glory or excitement in nuclear operation. It is utterly monotonous, repetitive, and mind-numbing. In the nuclear world, boring is good.
A typical shift (“standing watch”) involves prolonged sitting, staring at meters and gauges, reviewing logs of those instruments’ indications, listening to people complain about the Navy, listening to people discuss what they will do when they get out of the Navy, listening to people complain about other people on the ship, and little more.
Your recruiter might tell you this is purely a matter of opinion. It isn’t. If you don’t believe me, ask other veterans. This experience is in no way unique to me or my former submarine.
At sea, you will stand watch for 6 hours at a time, have 12 (while you lack seniority) or 18 (when you have seniority) hours off watch during which you will eat, train, and sleep, and then you will repeat the cycle. Ship-wide activities, such as casualty drills or cleaning marathons (“field day”), that require everybody to be up will sometimes disrupt your sleep schedule.
In port, you will fill out a lot of paperwork related to maintenance, train, and “stand duty” every 3 to 5 days. On duty days, you will sleep on the ship. Plan on working 6 days a week in port.
Such is life as long as you are attached to a submarine. During the 33 months I was assigned to a submarine, I spent about a year, in aggregate, actually under water. Most of that was the deployment.
Claim: Serve your country! You will do important work that makes the nation and world safer.
If you join the military, you will certainly be told frequently that this statement is true. However, it is HIGHLY DEBATABLE.
The propaganda about service to country is patriotic nonsense. The military serves the President of the United States and, by proxy, the agenda of entrenched power brokers. If you are seriously considering joining the military, your interests are probably not aligned with the interests of entrenched powers.
As a “War on Terror” veteran, I emphatically recommend reading War is a Racket, written by a two-times Medal of Honor recipient, before you sign any contracts.
Claim: Fast-track your civilian career! You will be highly desirable to industry after you leave the military.
If you want to go into one of the civilian occupations common for former nukes (more on this later), Navy nuclear service might be a parallel path to those occupations. Otherwise, you are probably just sacrificing 5+ years of civilian industry experience, which is a very high opportunity cost for somebody right out of school.
Some companies, such as General Electric, have recruiting pipelines for former military officers. Note that I write “military officers” generally; not “Navy nuke officers” in particular. The suggestion that employers will crawl over each other to hire you because you were in the nuke program is unequivocally FALSE. Employers look for directly relevant experience on your resume. If it isn’t there—and it probably isn’t if you’re trying to do something dissimilar from what you did in the military—you will most likely not be interviewed.
Many transitioning and veteran military officers attend hiring conferences organized by military-to-corporate recruiting firms like Orion International and Lucas Group. Most of the jobs on offer to ex-officers are entry/mid-manager positions in some kind of production/manufacturing environment at a large company. (As on a submarine, your job would be to manage technicians who keep equipment running.) As of early 2011, the last time I explored these offerings, most pay in the range of $55k-$85k annually. That’s nothing you can’t get with a technical degree and 5 years in civilian industry. For the most desirable degrees, you can exceed that pay range right out of college. I’m sure the pay range has shifted upwards since 2011, but that’s also true for the most desirable degrees pay.
As an ex-nuke officer or qualified senior enlisted person, you can immediately make six-figures at a commercial nuclear plant, but your life will be similar to how I described life on a ship–long, monotonous hours. If you want to climb the operations ladder at a civilian nuclear generating station, the Navy is one path to consider, but it is not the only path.
If you’re specifically interested in nuclear, I recommend learning about the commercial nuclear industry before you make any decisions about joining the Navy. Explore opportunities with names like “plant operator,” “auxiliary operator,” and “non-licensed operator.” These are synonyms for the people who actually operate equipment in a commercial plant (as opposed to the NRC-licensed operators in the control room).
Claim: Become a leader of men! You will gain valuable leadership experience at a young age.
UPDATE 4 January 2020: Given my desire to keep this article objective, and given that “leadership” is inherently subjective, I have decided I will break out this section into a separate article for a more thorough treatment. I’m not sure when it will be ready. It’s not high on my priority list.
THE NAVY WILL MAKE YOU A SUPERVISOR. John Reed writes at length about military “leadership.” If you read nothing else that he wrote, read that section. I’m not sure I agree with his assertion that leaders are born and cannot be made, but he nails it when he discusses the military’s emphasis on “form over substance” and “process over results.” I also recommend reading this article by Dilbert author and cartoonist Scott Adams.
The Navy delivered on its promise of putting me in charge of people at a young age. However, what I learned, mostly by trial and error, was the art of supervision. Junior submarine officers are supervisors, not leaders. There’s some value in that experience, but it isn’t what the recruiters are selling.
Enlisted caveat: While this is a benefit for young officers, it is a detriment for enlisted nuclear submarine sailors. Supervising reactor plant operations is primarily the role of the officers lowest in rank and seniority. This means that enlisted nuclear personnel constantly have to deal with the least experienced officers to get anything accomplished.
Every aspect of submarine life transpires according to written instructions. The “Plan of the Day” and the watch bill tell you where to be and what to do. Officers stand supervisory watches, but they are still slaves to the schedule. Given that reality, nobody leads much of anything in the same manner that a first-line supervisor in a factory has no authority to alter the production line; he just keeps it running.
After a while, I felt like a glorified secretary. Most of my lessons about leadership occurred from analyzing my own mistakes while observing copious examples of “what not to do.”
This is another area where your recruiter is likely to tell you that I am merely expressing my opinion or otherwise respond ad hominem. I suggest that you gather input from veteran enlisted submarine sailors. Ask some lifers, and ask some guys who got out after their first or second enlistment.
Claim: Driving a surfaced submarine is an amazing experience.
TRUE. My best Navy memory is of the time I stood “Surfaced Officer of the Deck” as we approached Australia. The weather was great, and the water was calm. The continent was rising up in front of me. I hadn’t been qualified to do this for very long but, at that moment, it was just me, another guy serving as my lookout, and the $900M warship upon which I sat.
If only these types of things had occupied more than about 0.12% (literally) of my total time in the military . . . (sigh).
Claim: See the world!
NOT GUARANTEED. This is a crap shoot. When I deployed in 2003, the political climate did not favor visiting many ports. Submarines also have special needs that prevent them from visiting some ports where surface ships or non-nuclear ships are free to dock.
In general, I recommend against joining any branch of the military to “see the world.” If you have the resources, check out the Semester at Sea. You will visit more of the world in a few months than you will visit in a decade of military service.
Claim: The pay and benefits are good.
COMPARED TO WHAT? See the monthly basic, food, housing, and submarine duty payments for commissioned officers to determine what the military would pay you. Then visit Payscale, Glassdoor, BLS, O*Net, or a similar site to see what private industry is likely to pay you for your chosen occupation.
My income was guaranteed, and the NUPOC program allowed me to exit college with zero debt and money in the bank. I’m very thankful for that. College debt is a serious problem for many 20- and even 30-somethings these days.
The Post-9/11 GI-Bill is an excellent benefit which I used to complete a Master of Science degree at a private university with no money out of my pocket. However, keep in mind that many large companies offer tuition reimbursement as a benefit. I could have completed multiple graduate degrees on a part time basis during the years I was in the Navy, and I would have gained relevant work experience at the same time. Instead, I became I full time graduate student in my 30s and sacrificed another 1.5 years of income.
Common Ex-Nuke Career Paths
If I had to label one thing recruiters say or imply as the “big lie,” it would be the notion that being a nuke is some kind of career booster or “stepping stone.” Over the years, I’ve looked up numerous shipmates and former Power School classmates (henceforth, “peers”) on sites like LinkedIn and Facebook, and I’ve noted that their careers often follow one of four paths:
- Commercial electricity generation (usually nuclear) or something closely related
- Supervisor in some kind of production facility
- Business development role at a large corporation after completing a MBA degree or entering some kind of veteran-specific rotational training program (like the GE program linked above in my article)
- Something completely different after completing one or more non-MBA graduate degrees
These categories are for people who are not career Navy. Literally all of the senior/career officers with whom I interacted during my years of service (commanding officers, squadron officials, etc.) who I have been able to find online are working as program managers for military contractors.
Note something common to all four paths–not a single one requires military service.
Group 1: Commercial Generation and Related
Nearly half the peers I surveyed fall into this category. This is true more often for my former enlisted peers, but many former officers are working at nuclear generating stations too. Some of my enlisted peers work as technicians at non-nuclear generating stations. I found one (enlisted) who works as an electrical grid operator and another (officer) who sells nuclear fuel. A couple of my training classmates work at INPO, the nuclear industry’s self-regulation/training/evaluation agency.
The Navy is well represented in commercial nuclear, but you can also just get a job working at a nuclear plant directly out of school if that is your prerogative.
Group 2: Production Supervisors
These jobs are on offer through military-to-corporate recruiters, who run hiring conferences that are well attended by current and recently separated junior military officers.
Group 3: Business Development
One of my peers completed a MBA at a prestigious school and got an energy business development role. Another joined a rotational program at a large company and works on the business side of oil and gas exploration. The man I relieved for “shore tour” completed a MBA at a different prestigious school and went to work at a food and beverage conglomerate.
If you see recruiting materials talking about nukes getting non-energy corporate executive jobs because the employer “just knew they could do it,” the real reason is because the service member followed this path. The employer hired the MBA; not the nuke.
Group 4: Completely Different
People in this category generally use their G.I. Bill benefits. One of my peers got a law degree, briefly worked as a lawyer, and then got a M.S. in computer science. Another got a PhD in finance. Yet another got a PhD in astronomy.
I’m in group 4. After years of self-employment, I started looking to work for other people again and discovered that I could only get interviews for group 1 and 2 jobs. After a couple of those, I went back to school full-time, completed a masters in computer science in 2014, and now work as a software engineer.
My original undergraduate majors were computer science and math, but I dropped the former after entering NUPOC in order to graduate a semester early. Therefore, in 2014, I came full circle to where I would have been in 2001 had I just avoided the military. My experience is that I’m dramatically more employable with a M.S. in computer science than I ever was trying to get hired with ex-nuke credentials, and the jobs for which I’m qualified are more interesting to me.
Your recruiters might tell you that the information in this section is purely anecdotal, and they would be correct by definition. However, here in the real world, people who ignore obvious trends like this often do so to their own detriment. Former police officers become security guards; former reporters work for public relations firms. Your current job is highly predictive of your next job. It isn’t rocket science.
Odds and Ends
Military service likely will change your personality. Socially, the military is the ultimate bro culture. It is exactly like a college fraternity, for whatever good or bad you associate with those organizations.
Almost nobody really cares where you went to school. Don’t assume substantial debt for school. If you’re not trying to work on Wall Street or at a top tier consulting or law firm, your in-state public university is probably good enough.
If you go nuke, go NUPOC. It’s a much better deal than ROTC or the Naval Academy.
ROTC staff are undisclosed nuke recruiters. I know this because I explored being an ROTC officer for my shore tour, and the incumbent told me.
Mental health issues, including suicides, and sexual assault against women are common in the military.
Conclusion
Join the nuclear Navy if you want to experience submarine/military service for its own sake. It probably won’t turbocharge your civilian career, and the idea that the military churns out great leaders is tenuous, at best. (Read John Reed’s leadership article!)
Keep in mind that money is only one factor you should consider. Military personnel tend to work very long hours. For much of my time in the Navy, I would have been happier to work half the time for half the money. How much is your life worth?
Also keep in mind that recruiters love to play up the mystique of the Silent Service. I asked my recruiter why he received some of his ribbons, and he informed me that they were for, “going certain places and doing certain things.” He wasn’t being glib–submarine operations are classified. But don’t assume that something is interesting just because it’s classified. My first Top Secret brief was three hours long, and I had to stand up and smack myself in the back of the head repeatedly to stay awake.
I hope you find this helpful. If you have any questions, you’re welcome to post them in the comments, but please first determine if I have already answered your question in the FAQ or in the comments for somebody else.
In conclusion, here’s a satirical video from The Onion that demonstrates exactly what the military is really like. It’s about the Army, but the Navy is the same (minus the combat).
FAQ
My GPA is X.XX, and [these are my life circumstances]. Will I get accepted to NUPOC?
I don’t know. If you think NUPOC is right for you, apply, and don’t worry about it. If you get rejected, you will not have lost anything.
What about the instructor and Naval Reactors pipelines?
I am not the best person to ask because I didn’t experience those paths.
Postscript – An Appeal
If you find this article useful, please share it, and post links to it on relevant forums. That will help it to remain among the top internet search engine results for “NUPOC” in spite of all the Navy’s “sponsored links” buying their way to the head of the line.
Please report broken links.
Dave, I came across your post here when I did a bing search on NUPOC. While I do not have the time right now to read more in depth of your page here, I would like to say I truly do appreciate your honest evaluation of the Nuclear Navy. I’m a second year student at a community college and I’ve been wanting to apply for the NUPOC program for a few months now (once I transfer) but as you suggest, I should go talk to more veterans to find out. What do you recommend I go to find veterans, or even nuclear veterans, officer or enlisted? Thanks.
Hi, Josh. I don’t have a no-fail answer for where to find veterans, but you might try talking with the VA rep. at your school’s bursar. (Decline if they point you to anyone affiliated with the school’s ROTC. You will not get honest information from such sources.) If that doesn’t turn up any leads, you could try contacting some of your local veterans’ organizations, such as the VFW, American Legion, etc.
I advise you not to waste time with certain internet forums that often come up when you search for “nupoc” because they harbor a bunch of recruiters in disguise.
Hi Dave, ever hear of someone pushing the issue of a drug waiver to get into NUPOC?
Many of my enlisted shipmates had waivers for marijuana use. I don’t know about the other officers. Unless you have a criminal record that would prevent you from getting a security clearance, I doubt you need to worry, but I’m not an authority on this topic.
Hi Dave, im thinking join in the navy nuke program. Im 25 with a bachelor degree in electrical engineering and a master in engineering management. My question is, what is the difference(money, position, work, etc.) between a nuke officer and nuke enlisted?
The difference between officer and enlisted pay is very significant, although I do not know the exact number. You can see the difference in base pay here.
If you already have a degree, do not enlist. Any recruiter who tells you otherwise is trying to fill a quota and does not have your best interests in mind.
I have a degree, but I have thought about enlisting just because as an officer it seems like you have a lot of responsibility. Obviously, the pay and resume experience is better as an officer.
How much money do you typically have to spend from your salary every year when on a sub assuming you are very frugal?
You will have ordinary living expenses, such as food and rent. However much you spend on those things as a civilian is what you would pay as a Navy officer.
When I deployed in 2003, I put my possessions in storage. I still paid for food at sea, but I did not pay rent.
Hello Dave,
Before I ask questions I would like to thank you for the non-recruiter viewpoint, I found it very useful. I Recently graduated with a B.S. in NucEng, the reason I chose an engineering degree was for the salary. From looking at the pay scales for officers it seems not to be nearly competitive with the nuclear industry counterpart. I know there are allowances outside the base pay but it does not seem like much. If you could enlighten me on the annual salary during the initial 6 year contract. From what I have gathered it seems I would be making 60K during my last year which is what I hoped to be making as a starting salary in the private sector.
Sincerely,
A recent grad considering OCS
Your numbers are correct. I barely cleared $30k my first year. My second to last year, when I received additional pay for being on a ship and living in Hawaii, it was around $79k, and my last year, in metro Chicago, was about $65k.
Hey Dave,
Thanks for this article it was very enlightening. I was considering being a Navy Nuc. I was going to go to college do NUPOC then enter as an officer. I’m a Senior in High school and I’m still very unsure of what I want to do, all I know is that I enjoy physics. Its sad to see that travel in not guaranteed, that’s really the only thing that attracts me to the navy along with being on the ship. With that being said do you know if I’d have a different experience on the ship. I want to be a Naval Reactor “Engineer” and work on the Ships propulsion system. And it seems that officers don’t really do anything, as an officer do you use all the things you’ve learned in college or the Power School.
Almost none of what you learn in Power School is useful when you’re standing watch in a propulsion plant. You will “use” some of the information in the sense that you will regularly sit for written tests as long as you are a nuke.
This isn’t particular to the Navy. At least at the undergraduate level of knowledge, you will probably not use much of what you learn in school in whatever job you get.
If you want to design propulsion systems, you might be better working for a military contractor, like General Dynamics, that builds ships. If you work for NR, you will audit and inspect ships, but you will not be assigned to one. The “Naval Reactors Engineer” job description on navy.com is a farce. NR is to the Navy what the NRC is to the commercial nuclear industry; it is a regulatory body.
I’m 28, have a BS in Engineering and I’m being recruited as a Nuclear Power Instructor. I have a full time engineering job, but I think I would enjoy teaching more so I’m considering it.
(1)First of all what is OCS like? My older bro was in the Army so he’s told me about basic training, but I’m guessing OCS is different to some degree.
(2)My recruiter told me that Instructors work 32-40 hours a week which seems too good to be true (us Mechanical Engineers in the real world do 50-70 hours a week so I’d be happy if it’s true) do you have any idea if it’s true?
(3)He also told me that almost all the Instructors get the Navy to pay for their Master’s degree during their first 2 years which would be awesome as I’ve been wanting to do this, but since my employer wasn’t willing to help pay or lighten my work load it hasn’t been possible.
(4)He also told me that Instructors never end up on ships or subs and if they’re called from their required reserve time they always serve as Instructors and again never end up on ships or subs does this sound feasible to you?
Thanks, I understand that you were not an instructor, but I appreciate any help and information you can give me.
Instructors are (or used to be) commissioned as “Direct Input, Limited Duty Officers.” Note the acronym; I’m not making that up. You would not go to OCS, which is bootcamp for officers. You would go to Officer Indoctrination School (OIS), affectionately known as “Fork and Knife School.” It is not challenging.
The nominal military workday is 0700-1600, which is 45 hours from Monday to Friday. You would regularly have evening office hours and sometimes weekend hours. Your recruiter might give you some spin about, “You go home when the work is done.” From your post-academic experience, you probably realize that is a justification for keeping you later rather than sending you home sooner.
I don’t know about the Masters degree, but that sounds like b.s. to me as well. The Charleston, SC area has some small liberal arts colleges, but I’m guessing they would not interest you. If you try to obtain a Masters via some kind of distance learning program, you would have to worry about the Navy vetoing your selection or refusing to pay. However, you could serve four years, get out, and use the GI Bill.
Your recruiter is telling the truth about not serving on a ship. As a limited duty officer, you would not be eligible or qualified to do so.
This is an excellent site, thank you for the time you put in to this project.
With the economy the way it is, I have been thinking about joining the Navy as an officer to gain specialized training, and the nuclear option, due to its undesirability relative to other officer programs, seems to be the easiest way to become an officer upon entrance because. I’m 23, two years removed from college graduation, and I have a 3.6 GPA in Biology with A’s and B’s in Physics and Calculus. I don’t have much leadership experience outside of being an Eagle Scout (I probably shouldn’t even mention that).
Am I competitive?
Hi, John. There are many paths you can follow to become an officer, and I don’t suspect that the nuclear route is easier than any of the others. If you want to be a nuke, you can probably be a nuke. It isn’t as selective as advertised.
Thanks Dave.
A recruiter started to organize by packet, but then a Lt. talked to me on the phone and said that a biology degree, even with one year of calc. and phys. is a no-go. It has to be in math, phys, chem, or engineering he told me.
Should I push the issue? He is a Lt.
You meet the requirements as currently listed on navy.com. The disciplines he stated are “preferred,” but not “required.” If you’re sure you want to be a nuke, I would push the issue. Sometimes recruiters push people in ways that help the recruiters meet their quotas; it isn’t about the applicant. Good luck.
My power school class had people with political science degrees. I’m sure your degree is sufficient for what you would actually do even if you are not their preferred candidate at the moment.
Hey Dave,
Thank you for the great information. I have been interested in the navy for a while now and talked to an enlistment recruiter. After taking a practice test, the recruiter told me about the nuclear power program. I took the information books but I was more interested in finishing school first and then becoming an officer in the navy. A week passed, and the recruiters surprised me at my work and brought along an officer recruiter. The officer recruiter told me about NUPOC. I have been in contact with him ever since then. He told me there is a 3 day trip to San Diego in September to check out the base and the submarines. Do you think this would be a great opportunity to see what life is like in the navy? My last question is about my relationship. I currently have a boyfriend in the Air Force. If I join NUPOC, how will my relationship be effected?
Hi, Erica. Finishing school sounds like a good idea to me. I took that same trip to San Diego back in 1999. It is a wine-and-dine tour that gives you little idea of daily life in the Navy. Daily life on a submarine is as I describe in my post. Surface ships are more connected with the outside world while at sea, but the lifestyle is basically the same.
I cannot predict how joining the Navy would affect your relationship. You could request to be stationed somewhere close to him, but you are not guaranteed to get what you want. My best guess is that you would see each other much less.
Hey Dave,
You. Are. Amazing. I’ve spent maybe the last hour and a half on this page, reading through a lot of the stuff and finding answers to almost all the questions I have. I am extremely impressed by how faithfully you’ve answered every question, even 4 years on from your original posting date.
I am wondering one thing, however — you replied to a comment back in 2009 saying how you’d like to get in the “business end of things” (you can run a search for that phrase on this page to refresh your memory on the context of your words), and how only time will tell. Well, 4 years on, in 2013, how has that worked out for you? Or have you not really put a whole lot of effort into transitioning into that field, instead deciding to embrace the great pay and what, by now, you’ve become a master at: running operations
Also, would you mind defining what you mean by “business end of things” by perhaps giving some examples of what duties you have in mind…. Does that refer to stuff such as, oh I don’t know, negotiating with contractors about getting new parts for the reactor, coming up with ideas about how to market nuclear power to potential clients?
I ask this because I feel like I’d prefer more of the management, business end of things as well rather than running machinery.
Oh, also, last question. I really hope you don’t take this the wrong way, as I’m just asking the following question so as to be able to get a better gage on easy it is to make that transition: would you say that you do have what it takes to be on the business end of things? Or might you say that all these years might’ve focused your mind on just ensuring machinery runs smoothly?
Thank you so much again for providing me with a much clearer picture of what being a nuc is like.
Thomas
Thanks, Thomas. I’m glad you found this post useful.
Ultimately, I decided to pursue advanced education using my GI Bill benefits, and I’m working on a software project that I will try to turn into a successful start-up. I’m also interested in working for somebody else’s start-up where equity is part of the compensation. I never succeeded in getting into the “business end of things” as an employee of a large company, but I never tried that hard either. In general, I have concluded that I’m not interested in working for large companies, which are bureaucratic, hierarchical, diluted versions of the military.
I believe that being an entrepreneur is a fundamental personality trait–one the contrasts sharply with the conformist mindset necessary to thrive in the military. John Reed, to whom I linked my post, wrote a lot about this. I started my first business, rental property acquisition and management, while still in the Navy, and I continued with it for some years after I got out. So, to answer your question about having what it takes, my response is, “I don’t know yet; but I’m trying.” I still need more time to tell, but I’m pretty certain that I’m on the right path for me. The “right path” is the path that will maximize my happiness and quality of life.
The nuclear Navy will not provide you any training relevant to the non-operational “business end of things”: marketing, financing, accounting, business development (attracting clients), recruiting employees, market forecasting, etc. These types of things are easy to learn, but employers are unlikely to hire you to do them unless you have a relevant educational background or previous experience.
If you want to serve in the military but would prefer a role more congruent with corporate business management, check out the supply core. Supply officers are “restricted line,” and they do not have “duty days” in port.
Great article!
I am a vet Marine and recent mechanical engineering graduate with no job prospects. The enlisted Navy recruiter, as well as the officer Navy recruiter, turned me away. The military is overmanned at this time, according to most reports. I think we are moving into an era where people will eagerly serve in the Navy, even if Smedley Butler’s assertions are absolutely true and universally accepted, just so that they can find gainful employment. Having a combination of massive student loan debt, an engineering degree, the inability to land a job even at McDonald’s, along with an absence of enlistment/commissioning opportunities in the military, is a little disturbing.
Thank you, Cecil. I’m surprised to hear they declined to consider your application. My motivation for joining the Navy was primarily economic, and I agree that there’s a big problem if even that avenue is closed.
Good luck with your job search. I can tell you from experience that some fields are still booming. Employers are begging for software people in some cities. If you haven’t considered GE’s JOLP, that might work for you. There’s a link to it somewhere in my post.
I just turned 36, so I am one year too late for OCS and two years too late for bootcamp (I have been out for almost 10 years; I would probably have to go back to boot camp if I enlisted now). I am still trying to put together my application package, but my chances are almost zero.
Dave,
As long as I could remember I always wanted to join the military. I come from a long line of family members who have served in all branches of service, starting since 1936. As such, as a child I was a member of the United States Naval Sea Cadet Corp USNSCC for a number of years. I was given many opportunities to live the life that you talk about. Which on a side note even as a member of the USNSCC it was similar but there was better times than others. One of my favorite times was going down to Corpus Cristi, Texas to the USN Mine Warfare school. I spent two weeks out at sea, of course it was a training mission since I was a minor, with MCM 10 and will never forget everything that happened. It drove me further to go into the service however I got into school and I placed my dream on hold to get my degree first. Currently I am a senior studying aerospace engineering. I fell in love with the world of aviation in both engineering and flight.
Sophomore year I applied to the USMC aviation program (only because out of the two branches of service offering a direct path to flight, the Army and Marine Corps, I still did not know which wing to fly so I choose the service that offers both fixed and rotary wing) and I ended up realizing that it was not the time to apply. The board was saying no to many candidates and I realized I just wouldn’t make the cut. If I knew how to prepare for the ASTB and study for school I would have continued the process. There was no time for both so I stopped the review process for on my package. Which in the end I wish I had waited.
I aint looking to get involved with the existing war. That’s not my reasoning for wanting to serve. The only reason why I bring any of this up is because I am currently rethinking everything in which I have done over the last few years. As of know I trying to run through my options of what I qualify for. I love what I am currently doing however there is nearly nothing available after I graduate. I became extremely lucky on account that after 460+ applications I found a position for this summer. Which I question why I was one of the last to be hired only to find out what others had better than me. I have no further conclusion than they must have known someone who pushed their application ahead. But at the end of the day I still have other things to worry about. Especially because the girl I got involved with has two more years after me as she’ll be earning her DPT.
The worst part about finishing with an aerospace engineering degree that the industry is collapsed right now. It was 3 to 4 years behind other industries falling which means are now its the worst time to attempt to enter. Most positions call for 2 to 5 year experience just for an entry level position. The idea of obtaining my masters now is a bad idea. I say bad because most companies won’t hire those who don’t have the industry experience. Several of the larger companies, especially Boeing, are letting large amounts of employees go. Though that be said they are not reporting how many are at a technician level vs the engineering level.This next decade the aerospace industry is predicted to expand.
Hence bringing to why I’m stuck. At this point I think I know what I want to do (go into the industry) but at the same time I don’t. I much rather take advantage of wanting to serve and fly. Though I am still open to several positions. The industry itself is opening with several new projects including the SLS project which is predicted to lead to several other engineering dreams that must people wouldn’t be able to understand.
On a side note, I am not looking for an answer as so much as a secondary commentary on weighing my thoughts and options of what to do after I finish in May 2014.
I have kept in touch with both recruiters, from both the USMC and USN. My rowing background and background in fire/rescue I’m hoping will get me in. However, I am in a panic right now trying to search for jobs. I know directly that I want to serve but believe that I still do not have what it takes.
So in the end I am asking:
1. Is there anything I should be doing besides working out, keeping my PFT scores up, and studying hard to finish my degree?
2. Any tips on searching for jobs in the civilian world. It sucks that my professors are not much help on the matter and even career services can only help out with resume writing.
This site answered the majority of what I have been thinking about. It is very appreciative and helpful to now know this knowledge. I have been in contact with all members of service I know but I still need help on making this decision.
Thanks for the help,
Anonymous
PS sorry about the long message.
It is very unlikely that you need to worry about not getting into the military unless you have a criminal background, and that doesn’t automatically exclude you either. Exercising and completing your degree are all the preparation you need. You might not get the program you want, but you can almost definitely serve in the military.
If you ask ten different professors/HR people/advisers for job search advice, you’ll get ten different answers. I have the impression that corporate hiring is an elaborate game that concludes when employers arbitrarily hire people based on factors, such as physical attractiveness, not under the job seekers’ control or based on completely subjective feelings about who they “liked” in the interview. Who you know is extremely important, but I doubt that other college students have deep connections that you lack.
If you’re not getting interviews, try tweaking your resume to include more of the buzzwords in the job listing. Put them near the beginning, and remove information not related to the job. Don’t give a generic resume to every employer. If you’re getting interviewed but not second interviewed, the problem is your personal demeanor. Perhaps you could try practice interviews with adults who have been in the workforce for some years. Your goal is the get the interviewer to like you as quickly as possible.
Good luck!
Dave,
I’d first like to thank you for giving your opinions of the NUPOC program and answering all of our questions.
1. Correct me if I’m wrong but you apply 1st semester of sophomore year in college. When will you have the decision by?
2. Also when they pay for college do you pay for your freshman and part of sophomore year, do you have to use their pay off loans assist or are you on your own?
3. Also what is the allowance value while in school? You also talked about COLA. Please expand further, you can start with the dollar amount. Does take effect if you are deployed?
4. If I read correctly you get a salary of a E6 while in training and then get moved to O1 or about 35k that will eventually make its way up to 60k. So over the 5 years about how much money were you able to save up?
5. Is everything the same if you apply for the teaching position? If you don’t get accept can you walk away or by that time would you already have signed the contract. I’m assuming this spot if flooded and harder to get into.
6. For the teaching opportunity would they care if my major was in economics or really any soft/social science instead of engineering if I still took physics and calculus? Also you probably don’t know but what if you got exempt from taking calculus 1 from AP or IB credit? Would you have to retake it for a grade, count it as a pass, or use your high school grade (unlikely)?
7. Would it look good on the application if you joined NROTC freshman year and quit? Would they like that fact you were looking into the navy, not like that you quit, or not ever know/care
Thanks for putting up with long post having to do with technical benefits and some interesting scenarios. It’s ok if you can’t answer everything, every piece of info can help influence a decision.
1. I first spoke with recruiters during my 3rd semester in college, interviewed with the admiral in August the following Summer, and had a decision on the spot.
2. They begin paying you a salary as soon as you sign a contract. Spend/save it however you like.
3-4. You will not receive COLA in school. It’s based on your “home of record” (where you’re stationed outside the continental US), and deploying doesn’t affect it. I saved somewhere around $100k in 5 years, but that is not typical.
5. You can always walk away if you haven’t signed anything, and you don’t sign anything unless you are offered admission to a program.
6. I’m not sure, but I doubt it matters. I had classmates who were econ and political science majors. They could have served as instructors for “shore tour.”
7. I don’t know if they would know, but I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t care. The program is not the super-elite experience it claims to be. If you meet the minimum requirements and are willing to sign a contract, you’re 85%+ likely to be in. One of the candidates at OCS when I was there had been booted from the Naval Academy, and he got commissioned.
Thank you for answering so quickly. I think it is important to know that it is not typical to save 100k over 5 years because they make it sound like with their ‘allowances’ that everything would be paid for and the salary could be put in the bank. Also it sounds like they don’t help pay for your undergraduate, they just give you a salary for 2 years and you can choose to use it for tuition. Lastly could you explain as much as you know about the people who teach not on shore tour but from the beginning.
Hi dave, thanks for the unbiased review of this program. I have been considering applying specifically to the Naval Reactor Engineering program. Does your description above also apply to this program, if not do you have any insight on this program? Also how competitive is it to get into this program? I have done research and have found that a 3.8 in any engineering field is of usual competitiveness. I am currently a senior in Chemical Engineering with 3.5 gpa with mostly A’s and B’s in engineering and math courses, and can probably bump up to ~3.6-3.7 gpa within my last 2 semesters.. Any information or guide to relevant sources regarding these questions is greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot!
Hi, Benjamin. NR is the Navy equivalent of the civilian NRC. It is a regulatory agency. I wouldn’t expect to design anything, but I could be wrong as I didn’t go the NR route. “Auditor,” rather than “engineer,” would probably be a more accurate description of your job duties.
I’m not sure how competitive the NR program is, but I advise you not to worry about it. If you’re interested, apply. There’s no penalty if you aren’t selected.
Dave,
I’m weighing my options for earning a degree in acoustics/sonar after I get my B.S. Obviously the navy is very interested in the topic, so it’s on my list of possibilities.
You mentioned in a reply earlier that you saw a few people unable to complete classes while on a submarine (Jan 13, 2010). Do you happen to know where they were taking the classes (e.g. through NPS or some other institution)? What factors were you able to see that led to their failure?
Thank you for your diligence.
-Mike
Hi, Mike. We’re talking at least 10 years ago, so I don’t recall what specific universities were involved. I do recall that certain universities cater to Navy nuclear personnel by offering degrees for which nuclear experience counted for credit. The only one I remember by name is Excelsior. They primarily targeted enlisted personnel seeking a Bachelors degree.
The most direct causes of failure were lack of free time, lack of a regular schedule, and lack of contact with the outside world.
Lockheed Martin supplied some of the sonar on my ship. If you want to help build sonar, I recommend getting a job for a corporation that manufactures it. Having graduate education about acoustics and sonar is irrelevant to the job you would actually do on a submarine or, I suspect, in any other position in the military. That probably sounds ridiculous, but trust me on this one. Military personnel are primarily operators. You don’t need a to know about combustion engines in great detail to drive a car. It’s the same scenario. As a submarine officer, you would regularly operate exactly two things on a ship–the periscope and the announcing circuits. Enlisted men operate sonar.
That degree sounds overly specialized. If I wanted to specialize in those areas, I would probably seek a M.S. in mechanical engineering and do something specific with sonar for my project/thesis.
I hope that helps!
Hey Dave,
I’m currently headed to Ballston Spa for Prototype after completing Power School and SOBC (the pipeline is a little haywire right now).
I served a year in Kosovo with the Army as a NATO peacekeeper in 2005. With a total of 3.5 years on active duty. When i got back, I attended college, and eventually found my way to NUPOC. I received a degree in Mechanical Engineering before shipping out for OCS in 2012.
Now, my comment/question. I find almost all your first hand accounts entirely accurate (both from my army experience and from what gouge I’ve received). My concern is with your description of finding work unrelated to the Navy nuclear propulsion officer after your commitment. I was unaware this was such an epidemic in our community. Was the work you found after the Navy sufficient monetarily, and if so were you able to advance further within the company given your Naval background?
My current plan is to get out and go into management or some supervisory capacity in the engineering world ( non-nuclear). Would you say that our background would give a certain “boost” to our resume’?
I’m also currently debating whether to go to graduate school. Ive read on your earlier descriptions that that would only be useful for certain jobs requiring a Masters for that position. However, what are your thoughts on receiving an MBA and coupling it with your Naval experience and your undergraduate degree, as far as how “valuable” prospective employers would see that type of combination?
Hi, Nathan. Good luck at prototype. I actually enjoyed running drill sets once I became comfortable with them. They make the watch go by much more quickly.
The economy permitting, you should not have too hard of a time finding the types of jobs you describe if you go through one of the military-to-corporate recruiting firms I mentioned. Don’t worry about contacting them; they will come to you almost as soon as you get to a ship. You will not be limited to the commercial nuclear industry. However, I suspect you will have a hard time getting interviewed for something outside of production and manufacturing. People hire nukes when they want rote execution of a bureaucratic process or when they just want workaholics.
If you want to try something else without having to return to school for new credentials, check out GE’s “Junior Officer Leadership Program,” to which I linked my article, but be aware that GE definitely wants workaholics.
I worked in several industries after the Navy in addition to self-employment. My salary was more than adequate for my needs, and there were advancement opportunities. I completely disagree with the recruiter propaganda about “boosting” your resume with military experience. Unless the civilian job aligns VERY closely with your military job–for you, commercial nuclear or something related to government contracting–your prospective employer, given the most generous leap of faith, will consider you equal with somebody who has an equivalent number of years working in civilian industry.
Receiving a Masters is useful for changing industries and doing something completely new. That’s the route I chose. I also considered getting a MBA, but climbing a corporate ladder is not for me. That’s the reason to get a MBA. If you want to be an entrepreneur, just do it; you don’t need a degree for that.
I hope that helps. When you’ve been in the fleet for a couple of years, and then when you’ve been a Navy veteran for a couple of years, I hope you will find your way back to this post and tell me about your experience. I don’t frequently hear from active duty personnel or veterans.
Hi Dave,
Wow, this post is a wealth of information and all of the comments from other people and you have been illuminating. Thanks for taking time out to answer everyone.
I’m graduating with an MS in physics in a few weeks. I’d originally planned on doing the Ph.D., but have found that I don’t enjoy the culture of my department and the attitude that if you don’t spend 100+ hours/week in the lab, you’re not working hard enough. I’ve talked to a NUPOC recruiter and am scheduled to take the VIP trip out to DC in May. I am also applying to other technical jobs with Lockheed Martin, Honeywell, etc. I have a couple of questions, if you have the time.
(1) I am interested only in the Naval Reactors Engineer position in DC. So first, let’s say I’m (for whatever reason) turned down by the Admiral for that position. Would I be forced to choose a different position, or can I just walk away from the Navy free and clear? Also, much of your post and others’ comments seem to deal with the low quality of life, monotony, and long hours on a sub or surface ship. From what you’ve seen/heard, does much of this also seem to be true for the NREs? Lastly, it seems from what I’ve read that the NREs actually DO get involved in some of the design and actual engineering on the reactors, at least when they’re more senior. Do you have any idea whether this is actually the case?
(2) Are the IA’s a significant concern nowadays too? Do you think I’d likely come up for one if I were in an NRE position?
(3) After my Navy commitment, I would like to go back to get my PhD, and eventually be in a position to influence national policy on issues dealing with nuclear proliferation and nuclear energy. Or, I would be interested in taking the skills gained in the Navy together with the experience from the PhD and working on something like nuclear propulsion for spacecraft. Do you think these are feasible options, or would I be better off pursuing a similar path on the civilian track?
I have to say that financial considerations are significant to my decision. With the Navy’s pay, food and living allowances, I would be essentially debt-free and sitting on some savings in 5 years, offering me significantly more freedom to take my time and choose from the various opportunities open to me. 5 years’ commitment doesn’t seem like too bad of a trade-off, and I think I would actually enjoy a bit more regiment and structure in my work environment.
Sorry for the length, and thanks in advance for any help you’re able to offer!
Hi, Michelle.
You are not committed to the Navy unless you sign on the dotted line. Until that moment, yes, you can walk away. They can’t force you to do anything.
I cannot give you reliable information about the NR position or IAs, although my educated guess is that IA is much less common now than it was in 2006.
As I wrote in another recent comment, I discourage people from viewing the military as a “stepping stone.” Consider the biography of the Secretary of Energy. He never served in the military. Most politicians who hold federal office are not veterans. They get to influence policy, and their only obvious talent seems to be the ability to win an election. So are your proposed career paths feasible? Sure, but military experience won’t directly help you. I also caution you about the military culture. If you don’t like your department’s pressure to work 100+ hours/week, you will definitely not appreciate the military’s culture.
I barely cleared $30k (before tax) my first year as a commissioned officer. I’m sure Honeywell, LM, etc. would pay you significantly more than that. If you live frugally, you could just as easily be in the financial position you describe in 5 years without the military. If you take a civilian job and want more structure, you can just get another job.
I hope this helps!
Hi Dave. I’m currently in my junior year of pursuing a degree in chemical engineering. I decided that I wanted to apply for the NUPOC program. I talked to a recruiter but have not filled out the paperwork yet since I wanted to take the time to read every bit of fine print. I came across the 2 yr active duty enlistment thing and became a little suspicious. Did some research and thankfully came across your blog.
At first it was startling but now after reading most of the questions you answered, I still want to apply. I want to choose anything but the sub option–which has been my plan from the get-go. Personally my first choice is SWO, thinking it might get me some travel. (Just to clarify, travel is not a main reason for me to apply. I saw it as a bonus) Do you know if this thought might actually be true?
I’ve always wanted to join the military–Navy runs in the family. However, I was advised not to enlist because I can contribute more intellectually as a civilian. So then I wanted to work for the military as a civilian–hoping to eventually get into the DoD and deal with energy (like nuke) or explosives. Considering how challenging I’ve seen that is (through friends), I came across NUPOC–thinking it’s near perfect for me. Would transitioning to government civilian jobs after the 5 years be as easy as they claim it to be? Especially if I still want to stay in the nuclear field..maybe one day go into renewable energy depending on how much I like nuke?
Your response is truly appreciated. Sorry for the length. Thanks to this blog I’ve been able to actually do some good research. I had no idea what IA was. Thanks again!
Hi, Ryane.
You would probably see more foreign ports as a SWO than you would as a submariner, but there are no guarantees. You would serve your first two years at SWO school and then aboard a non-nuclear surface ship, such as a frigate or destroyer. Then you would go through nuclear training and report to an aircraft carrier. You should speak with veteran nuclear-trained SWOs for more reliable information, but I doubt that you would experience many ports while assigned to an aircraft carrier. I heard that nukes frequently end up staying on board while other people go to shore because you can’t just turn off a reactor.
If you want to make an intellectual contribution, serving as an officer will not be significantly better than serving an enlistment. Civilian contractors produce military technology with DoD administrative oversight. If you want to work in energy, why DoD? Have you checked out DoE opportunities?
See the paragraph beginning with “Federal hiring” in my comment response dated February 24th, 2012. In general, I discourage you from thinking of the military as a “stepping stone” to something else. Join the military because you want to make a career of the military or because you need the money. If you want to be a federal civilian employee or work with renewable energy, ask yourself how you can pursue those objectives today.
I hope this helps. If you join NUPOC, I wish you the best of luck. It’s definitely a better deal than ROTC or the Naval Academy.
Hey Dave. Great article. I am an electrical engineering student in college. I was looking for opportunities after graduation in order to help my family with financial troubles and thought NUPOC would be a good route.
Unfortunately, I do want to continue my education and obtain a PhD in physics. And reading your article shows that NUPOC has no extensive research experience available that would be required for graduate school.
Anyways, thanks for the great post. I now think my best option is going into the Defense Industry first and then going to graduate school.
You’re welcome, Erny. I recently ran into exactly the problem you describe when I applied to graduate school. The most prestigious schools all want research credentials, and I have none. I still received offers from quality schools, but Harvard and MIT were not-starters at that point.
Hello Dave,
First of all thanks for this blog. I really wish would’ve found it a lot earlier. I got accepted into the NUPOC program and I am currently in the process of getting my commission at OCS. During the time that I’ve spent here, I have learned that the progam is really not what recruiters make it out to be. I decided to join because I wanted to do engineering not because I needed the money (although it make it sound much better than other civilan or private opportunities). Now just a couple of days ago I came across this blog and all my doubts have grown stronger.
I have been going over my contract for the past couple of days, and I found a section that says that if I disenroll from the NUPOC prgram before commissionig for any reasons other than physical I will serve 2 yrs active duty in an enlisted status. I will be ordered to navy recruit training. I will be reduce to E-3 pay and the two yr active duty obligation will commence on the date of orders. Also, no specialized navy schooling will be authorized following basic training unless I am willing to extend my two yr active duty obligation to meet the service requirements of the training requested.
Based on this post I have decided that I’m not prepared to give 5 yrs of my life away. I would like to get a masters in ME later in my life but I also want to live my life. It seems that if I stay in the program I will not get a chance to work on my masters until im done with my contract. By then I will be 30 yrs old at least.
What would you advice me to do? I have spoken to a family member who I look up to and have lots of respect for, and he said that based on the way I put it I should do the 2 yrs route and that he will later help me pay for my masters degree. Now I have no doubt that I’ve made a mistake by signing the contract but making the next choice really scares me to death (stay and give 5 and half yrs of my life away or do 2 enlisted and move on with my dream of doing engineering). I am really afraid to get a really bad enlisted position. I could possibly be part of an infantry division.
I would really appreciate an answers as im running out of time.
Thank you so much for putting it how it really is.
Al,
It sounds like you have a very serious decision to make. I advise you to review the benefits of the Post 9/11 GI Bill. As I understand it, you would have the same benefits after an enlistment of two years that you would have (and I have) after being commissioned for five or more years. You could begin pursuing your masters as soon as you get out.
You would also probably have to repay your nuclear signing bonus. I suspect your contract includes something about that. Speaking with Navy Legal is probably a good idea. Your class officer can set an appointment for you, but expect him to try to talk you out of changing your mind.
If you enlist for two years, expect to spend your days painting, cooking, and cleaning on a surface ship.
I hope this helps.
Dave
Hey Dave! I really wish I had read this before I applied for NUPOC. Anyway, I guess I have three questions for you.
1) Do you know if it is possible to switch from subs to instructor?
2) My reason for switching is that I am planning getting married within the next two years. Since I probably won’t be able to switch, do you know if it is possible to get married in between schools? I hear that there is a lot more time (3-4+ months) between schools. So will the Navy give me time to do so? What about a honeymoon?
3) You kind of answered this in a previous post, but what are the chances of getting to chose the port you are stationed at? Are people given boomer slots often?
Thanks again!
Hi, George. Good luck with the Navy.
1) I’m not sure. Read the fine print of your contract, and be prepared to push when your recruiter doesn’t want to deal with it.
2) You probably won’t have more than a couple of weeks between schools. While you’re in the training pipeline, your schedule is more or less fixed. The best time to marry and honeymoon would probably be between sub school and reporting to your ship.
3) Pretty good unless the detailer specifically says otherwise. If you want a boomer, you will get a boomer.
Hey Dave,
Thanks for writing this. It’s nice to see the realities of something compared to the suger coated version we get online. So i am a freshman in college, an Applied physics and mathamatics duel major. i have a 3.38 gpa and up untill recently had a full ride scholarship. however my mom’s job, the company i got the scholarship from has started to downsize and mom lost that part of her benefits. So i’m going to need a way to finance my college. the bennifits end at the end of my sophmore year, right on cue for nupoc. I always liked nuclear physics and originally i wanted to after my 4 year deploma go get my phd and teach physics at a college some where but since that looks like it may no longer be a reality, at least not right away, would you suggest i go for the nupoc. would it help in the long run like resume builder and it would cover me financially. I really dont care about seeing the world and haveing alotta free time. im used to working Long hours so i think i could do it. I love learning and i think that even if its only from an operator point of view it still gives me a good look at the physics behind it. Any thoughts or suggestions would be great, thanks again,
~Dom
I’m glad you found this useful, Dominic. Your circumstances are very similar to those that led me to go NUPOC. I was an out-of-state student, my funding dried up, and I didn’t want a mountain of school debt. The good news is that NUPOC would definitely meet your financial needs, and you could use GI Bill benefits to finance your graduate studies after you get out.
If money is your primary motivation, I strongly suggest that you perform an exhaustive scholarship search before committing to the military. Knowing at age 20 what I know now, I would strongly have considered transferring to an in-state school or even going part time while working.
Don’t contact recruiters earlier than the first semester of your sophomore year, and don’t reveal to them that you have an urgent financial need. Also reread what I wrote about the “fast track your career” sales pitch.
I hope that helps.
Dave,
Thank you for all of the information, I found it to be very helpful. I am a third year Mechanical Engineering major at UCLA with a 3.67 GPA. I spoke with a recruiter and I am currently in the application process but had a few questions that I was hoping you could answer.
1) Do you know how long the training process is? I know it’s OCS/ODS plus power school but are there breaks in between? For example, after I graduate, how long do I have to wait before I go to OCS and what am I allowed to do during those breaks in between?
2) I am looking into the power school instructor program. However, I am concerned about job prospects after I finish my four years. Do you know any experiences or anyone who went through with this specific program?
3) I am also looking into the naval reactors engineer position. The recruiter told me that there is a lot of actual engineering involved in this program. Is that true?
4) What are my chances of getting into either of these programs?
5) How difficult is OCS and what happens in case of injury? I ask because I found out during wrestling that my knees are a little injury prone.
6) For the programs I mentioned earlier, is it just like a standard job where I commute to work and go home at night? I don’t mind working late as long as I get to go home at night. I have a fiancee and I really do not want to be apart from her for 6+ months if I decide to enter this program.
7) Can you choose where to be stationed if you become an SWO? I would really like to stay in San Diego for personal reasons.
8) Are you familiar with the SWO program? The recruiter said you stay on port longer than you are on the boat but I have a feeling that might be a lie.
9) I get a little seasick on small boats. Will that be an issue if I decide to become a SWO.
Sorry I asked so many questions but I just want to be thorough before sending in my complete application. Again, thank you so much.
Hi, James. I’m glad you found this information useful.
1) You will have short breaks between training phases depending on when the next phase is scheduled to start. Between college and OCS, I had about a month to do whatever I wanted to do. Between OCS and Power School, I had less than two weeks, which included the time I needed to procure an apartment in Charleston, SC and set up a home. I took leave during that time; other people got assigned menial tasks wherever the Navy decided to stash them. There’s no rule about what you do between training phases. I had about 2.5 weeks of leave between Power School and Prototype, and I don’t remember how long I had between Prototype and Submarine Officer Basic Course (“Sub School”). It wasn’t long.
2) I have no idea what happened to my direct-input instructors after they got out.
3) This depends on what you include under the banner of “engineering.” As I wrote in my article, reactors and ships are designed by civilian contractors. Naval Reactors probably gives specifications to the contractors, but they aren’t the primary designers. Pressurized water reactors are not specific to the Navy. If you want to be a design engineer, avoid the Navy nuclear program unless your finances preclude it.
4) I have no idea about your chances for acceptance. If you’re interested, apply. The people who get the jobs (any job) are the people who show up.
5) I also wrestled, and OCS is nothing you can’t handle physically if you were at all committed to wrestling. The hard part about it for me was being sick all the time, which is what happens when you gather people from all over the country and suppress their immune systems with constant activity and sleep deprivation. In general, OCS is not a roadblock.
6) My understanding is, “yes,” but I’m not an authority on this.
7) In any branch of the military, you submit a “dream sheet” telling your detailer–the person who assigns you to a job–your preferences. He or she will usually try to accommodate you, but “needs of the Navy” trumps everything. For example, my class was told flatly that, “Nobody is getting San Diego,” which was my first choice too.
8) I don’t know if this is true or not, but you should expect to spend a lot of time at sea if you are attached to any sea-going command. Even in port, you will have “duty days” where you will sleep on the ship. Expect to work 6 days a week. In general, being in the military is hard on a marriage.
9) Probably.
Does this apply to the reactor engineer position?
Is there something more specific you want to know?
Wow, ironically the very post before mine addressed this question.
Thanks and sorry, Dave. And I appreciate your priceless advice, as well.
You’re welcome, Cody. I’m glad you found this information useful.
Dave,
I haven’t read every post and comment, so send me somewhere if this question is redundant. But I am interested in Surface Warfare Nuke Officer, not submarine. What are the differences in duties and lifestyle as SWO(n)?
I am a good leader and will be graduating with a ChemE and English degree in 2016. Right now, I am looking for something to do before going to law school. My other consideration other than joining the military between now and law school was hopping over to Europe for 1-3 years with the clothes on my back. But the only downside of that for me is that I will have student loans to pay.
Dave,
I read your entire post (coming up on 3 years, good stuff, haha). I spoke to a recruiter today, and your analysis is spot on, not to mention it was the complete vibe I was getting from the recruiter the entire time. I have a few questions:
1. Why do you think it is “impossible” to complete courses or pursue a degree onboard the submarine?
2. I just completed my masters in mechanical engineering, and was looking to apply for the nuclear school as an instructor, which is what I originally wanted to speak to the recruiter about, but he said my GPA wasn’t high enough (3.45), which he then immeadiately started talking to me about being a submarine NUC, think you think he was telling me the truth?
3. The second thing I wanted to do if I couldn’t become an instructor, since I enjoy teaching, was to become a pilot, but he was kind of detouring me from that route as well, do you know anything about pilots in the Navy?
4. He said my masters doesn’t carry much weight going into the nuclear program, as I’ll start at the same level as everyone else. What is your opinion on this? Is this true?
5. Is there anything negotiable with the recruiter or on your contract prior to you signing?
Thanks for your time, I commend you for still keeping up with this blog.
1. “Improbable,” not “impossible.” Life on a submarine is highly routine, and you don’t have a lot of free time. You will not have internet access at sea, which limits your options for online courses.
2. I’m no authority on the exact standards to be a Power School instructor, but I smell b.s. If you’re interested in being an instructor, walk away. I bet he will call you back later with a different tune.
3. I know that Navy pilots go through flight training in Pensacola, FL, which is also the location of OCS. I think their minimum obligation is 8 years, but I could be wrong about the exact number. I know it’s a long time because they spend a long time in training.
4. You would go through the same training as everybody else. He’s telling the truth about that.
5. Everything is negotiable everywhere all the time, although your recruiter won’t admit that up front. Walk away. If he comes back again but you’re on the fence, tell him you’ll sign if he doubles the signing bonus. When he declines, walk away again. If he still comes back, you know he’s willing to play ball.
When negotiating anything in life, your greatest asset could be your ability to walk. Stick to your guns. Know exactly what you want to do and why you want to do it. Be prepared to say, “No.” I hope that helps.
Tremendous help, thank you. After reading this post, and doing further research I realized this isn’t the job for me. I still want to join the Navy, just not under these conditions.
What is your opinion on SWO compared to submariner?
People I met in the non-nuclear SWO community generally seemed to have a more positive view of the Navy, and I’m pretty sure they visited more ports than submariners. On the other hand, a lot of people I met in training to become surface nukes generally felt that they would rather go back to what they were doing on a non-nuclear surface ship.
If you’re interested in being a SWO, non-nuclear or nuclear, I highly recommend speaking with a veteran who had that experience.
Thanks again for all your help. Your knowledge is priceless.
Hello,
I am a chemical engineer junior who has two years left. My GPA is 3.9.
I was wondering if you knew how often you could email shore on the subs. Also, is it likely you will only make 1 deployment on the submarine?
For the schooling is their any free time to go out and do you have weekend off completely or are you required to do homework and activities?
Also are you allowed to bring things like portable music devices, or other electronics on the sub and are there places to charge these? (Sorry if that is a dumb question)
When you do make port how long are you there for typically?
Thanks!
This site has been really helpful I appreciate any feedback.
Alex
When you are out to sea, you can write e-mail as often as you like. It will get stored in a queue until the ship comes to periscope depth, at which time it might send and receive all messages. Generally speaking, you won’t wait more than 3 or 4 days for a turnaround. It makes the submarine experience much more tolerable.
You will make 1 or 2 deployments per sea tour. It just depends at what point in the ship’s rotation you arrive.
The classroom–“Power School”–phase of training is a M-F job. Is your grades are sufficient, you will not need to show up on the weekends. If you struggle, you will spend nearly all your waking time at work.
You can bring whatever portable electronic devices you want, and charging them is not an issue.
I don’t know of any formal rules for port calls, but I will tell you my actual experience. The longest I was ever under water continually was 7 weeks, followed by a week in port, followed by another month and a half at sea, followed by two weeks in port, and on and on for the rest of a 7.5 months long deployment. My port calls lasted anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks.
Dave,
Thanks for creating this site and offering so much honest informaiton. Here’s a little about me, I was approached with the NUPOC program in 1999 when I finished my first year in engineering. I was leary when the recruiter could not promise that I would be on carrier instead of a sub. I grew up in the country and I get a little stir crazy if I can’t see the sky throughout the day. I left engineering as I grew tired of repitetive calculations and wanted to work with people. Since then, I have been a high school math and science teacher for the past 11 years. I am now 32 years old and think it is time to leave education. In the summer, I will have earned my doctorate in educational leadership, but my interest in NUPOC has resurfaced. The honest reason for my reinterests in NUPOC is the money to go back to school to finish my engineering and to get out and see a little of the world. After reading your posts, I am not overly enthuasistic about being an operator, but I think I could look at it as a necessary evil. My questions 1) Do you know the ports for nuclear carriers? 2) About how much time during a normal tour could I be on shore? 3) how true is the the Navy’s claim that I could use military transport for vacation? and 4) If you do not make it during training can they switch your occupation? I have buddies in all branches of the military. Most of them signed up for financial gain or the thought of a macho lifestyle. They are mainly against my idea of going into the military and say that I should stay in the private sector. Thanks again for creating this page and for answering all of our questions. You have definitely helped a lot of us.
Hi, Barrett. I’m glad you found this information useful. Unfortunately, I cannot offer you reliable information about life as an aircraft carrier sailor, and I never used military vessels for personal travel. Try searching for “military airlift command” to learn about “MAC flights.”
If you do not make it through training, you would still have to finish your obligation to the Navy, and you might have to repay your nuclear signing bonus. One guy in my class didn’t make it. He got redesignated to the Civil Engineering Corps (CEC; “Seabees”).
If multiple people in multiple branches of the military are telling you the same thing, there’s probably a good reason.
Hi Dave,
I just have a few questions for you but before I ask them I would like to say a few things about my situation. I am a Freshman at a junior college and am going to transfer to a four year next year. I first heard about the NUPOC program through a Navy Officer Recruiter and I was immediately attracted to the program. With this economy as it is, for a student to get out of school without student loan debt, that it is absolutely amazing. However, that is not the only reason why I am considering this program. The thought of serving my country while doing something I am truly interested in literally keeps me up nights. This probably stems from the fact that both my father and grand-father served in the military (both enlisting after college). Anyway, my questions are: What are the true benefits of NUPOC while still in college? After college? Are there opportunities for furthering my education such as going back to earn my Engineering License? What can I do to make myself more desirable for the program? As I said, I am very interested in this program and have not heard many unbiased things on the internet or from the recruiters. Thanks in advance
Regards
Hi, Jacob. If you join the military, you will serve the President. Don’t assume that is synonymous with serving your country.
The recruiting materials and recruiters will accurately tell you about the immediate monetary benefits of the program. I recently applied to graduate school, and I intend to finance my education with GI Bill benefits. That’s a great benefit that you could use after you get out. You are extremely unlikely to complete any degrees or non-military professional certifications while in the military. Nothing stops you from pursuing a Professional Engineer (PE) license after you get out.
The recruiting website will tell you the acedemic prerequisites for the program, which are not that extensive. Other than that, makes sure you can run a mile and a half in less than 12 minutes. Have a nice suit for when you interview with the admiral. If you are a decent student and want to be a nuc, you will be a nuc.
Thank you very much for your comment Dave!
Thanks for all of the information Dave. I’m a mechanical engineering major in my senior year and I’m really interested in the NUPOC program but so far I haven’t found much unbiased information. I’ve tried contacting recruiters around the Chicago area but I have not received any responses. I’m seriously considering this program after college but I need more information. Do you know if there is anyone I can talk to around the Chicago area? I noticed you were in Great Lakes but I’m not sure if you are still around this area and available to meet to discuss this program in further details.
Thank you,
AJ
Hi, AJ. I’m surprised the recruiters haven’t pounched on you! I don’t live near Chicago anymore, and I don’t know anybody there who would give you unbiased information. If you post your question here, I will answer if I’m able.
Hey good write. One thing I have heard mixed statements on. I am grad’ing in nuclear engineering and applying to NUPOC. My recruiter said they will not repay student loans. My mother said she heard they will. Reading online didn’t give a lot, but I read they cease to pay if you become an officer. I have no past background in the armed forces.
Thanks, Kyle.
Your recruiter is probably a reliable resource when it comes to information about the financial benefits of NUPOC. His job is to present the opportunity in the best possible light, and that includes telling you about any and all financial incentives. There was no loan repayment when I joined in 1999; you got paid a signing bonus and a salary, which you could spend however you desire.
I’m not sure what you mean about ceasing to pay when you become an officer. The Navy began paying me E-6 salary after I committed to NUPOC. After I received my commission, the Navy commenced paying me O-1 salary, which was an increase.
Hey Dave. I’m going to be a Junior in high school next year (I know that sounds really early to be thinking about this, but..) I am interested in designing nuclear reactors (possibly fusion), and I saw the NUPOC program can lead into a position as a Naval Reactors Engineer. My plan WAS to get a 4 year b.s in plasma physics or something similar, and then sign the dotted line… I was wondering what (if anything) you knew about what a navy engineer did and the skill sets that would be developed from a five year commitment? As well as what the lifestyle was like, and career options afterwards?
Hi, Tyler. Naval Reactors (NR) oversees and regulates the nuclear fleet. They do what the Nuclear Regulatory Commission does for the civilian nuclear industry. This includes staffing regional offices from which NR representatives perform inspections of nuclear ships. NR’s headquarters is in Washington D.C.
I cannot with certainty tell you much more than that, but I’m pretty sure NR is the wrong avenue for you if you want to design reactors. A ship’s reactor is one component of a mesh of interrelated systems, and ships are built by teams of contractors. I suspect that your job as a NR agent, if it is not performing shipboard inspections, would have more to do with identifying performance trends from the troves of data that nuclear ships supply to NR.
If you start dealing with recruiters, don’t let them bait and switch you. The NR path is distinct from the path I followed. Some of the people with whom I served went to NR for their “shore tour,” but that is not the same thing as starting with NR. Be prepared to say “no.”
Hello Dave. I’ve enjoyed reading your article and various replies. I’m a college Sophomore and have been looking into the NUPOC program. The most appealing aspect of it is financial. At the moment I’m torn because (no offense to them) I’d never believe a word that any recruiter says. At the same time, the few posts I’ve found in and around the web don’t seem to have to many positive things to say about NUPOC in general and working on a sub in particular. I have no wife or kids to worry about so for me the family aspect would not be an issue but there are still other things I’m worried about.
For one thing, if you had to choose a carrier over a sub all over again, would you? I can’t help but think that being on a sub would be much more restrictive in terms of seeing other places than a carrier. Also, I still think (my opinion, not a recruiters’), that more opportunities would be opened up in the civilian world by being a nuke, carrier or sub, relative to other officer MOS categories. Do you find this to be true?
I understand from my own research that it’s going to be nothing but study time for the first year or so until you earn the dolphins, but is it as miserable an experience as it seems to sound like or simply a difficult apprenticeship of sorts?
With regard to a sea tour, I don’t have a preference between attack subs or ballistic missle subs, but is there a huge difference in either way for life qualitiy or other issues? Did you find that one is better than the other?
I plan to read the article about promotions once I post this text but I still wonder about the road for advancement. Even if you want to be a CO, or XO, isn’t it more difficult to do it on sub duty because there are fewer spots available compared to the rest of the navy? You said that you can make O-4 or maybe XO without that much difficulty before politics kick in but is it hindered by a lack of available slots?
Last of all, and I know that I’ve let this post run on for way to long, I’d like to know, yes or no, would you do it again? Thanks for your very informative post and I look forward to your answers and insight.
Hi, Carlyle. I will answer your last question first. No, I would not do it again because the opportunity cost was too high. I spent most of my 20s doing something that was generally not enjoyable [for anybody], and the jobs I’ve since gotten in the civilian world are based on what I did in the Navy. I don’t want to work in any kind of manufacturing/production/operations environment anymore for some of the same reasons I didn’t chose to continue working on a submarine. Those are the kinds of jobs you are likely to get based on being a nuke. They pay relatively well, but they bore me. I want my life to produce something other than paperwork, and I want to do something other than keep machinery running.
On a positive note, the GI Bill benefits are excellent. Now I’m looking to go to graduate school and do something completely dissimilar from what I did in the Navy. I will pay little or nothing out of pocket for my graduate education.
I suspect that aircraft carrier sailors have a better quality of life than submarine sailors. They have more space, including exercise facilities, and they have real time communication with the outside world. In fact, I originally requested carriers, but I let my recruiter convince me to go submarines instead. Speculating subs vs. carrier is meaningless because I wouldn’t do either if I had it to do over.
If you only do one sea tour in the Navy, you will only serve on one type of submarine. I only served on a fast attack submarine. Ballistic submarines have a much more regular schedule, which is why many married guys choose to go boomer. Without first hand experience of both, I cannot give you a meaningful comparison other than to tell you that the division officer submarine experience is dominated by nuclear training and qualification. That will be the same regardless of the type of nuclear powered ship.
There is no cut and dry answer to your question about promotions. They depend on politics and quotas, both of which vary with time. What you actually do probably factors into the decision as well, but the military is not an obvious meritocracy. I agree with John T. Reed’s assessment–promotions are random.
I think this is a great article Dave. Right now I’m applying for NUPOC and I’m torn between nuclear school instructor and nuclear submarine officer. The instructor appeals to my desire to teach but I also want to feel that I’ve served my country in a more active role by working on a submarine. You make the submarine life sound like complete drudgery, but did you enjoy the people you worked with? Was there any entertainment while you weren’t on the watch? When you’re on shore duty what kind of hours do you have to put into work? As for the instructor position, did you know anybody that was an instructor? Do you know anything about there quality of life? Thanks for any help.
Thanks, Kyle. I’m glad you appreciate my article.
I liked some of the people and didn’t care for others. That statement probably isn’t useful to you, but remember that a submarine is a microcosm of the rest of our nation.
We had an extensive movie library on board, and we had the ability to send and receive e-mail (not in real time). Other than those things, your entertainment was limited to what you could bring with you, which wasn’t much due to limitations on storage. Many of the officers played poker on Saturday evenings.
Shore tour hours vary greatly. I had a very easily job where I didn’t work anything close to 40 hours/week, but you could get a shore tour billet where you work a ton of hours. It depends what you want and what is available when it’s your time to rotate to shore.
My instructors seemed to work a fairly straight-forward M-F schedule. Some of the instructors entered the Navy specifically to instruct, as you are considering, and some were sea returnees on shore tour. I don’t remember if they had weekend hours or not. In general, instructors have a much better quality of life than anybody on a submarine.
Glad I found this site! Thanks a bunch for all the info and reply’s to comments. I actually just got invited for an interview in March, and its all hitting me that this is a big commitment. I’ll be graduating with a ME degree the end of this year, but being part of the military is just something I’ve wanted to do. I thought the whole NUPOC program would be a perfect fit for using my degree and getting to be an officer. Seems things aren’t so great. So my question to you is, how much does one get to participate in the more tactical side of things?
As you said, driving the sub was a great experience, and something that makes me VERY interested. So is there ways/certifications one can do to increase the amount you are involved with driving the sub? During the initial commitment(tour) or after?
I’m getting cold feet after reading the realities of the program.
The nuclear experience dominates life as a first sea tour submarine officer. If you’re not actively standing watch in the engine room, you’re still training on it all the time, and it’s the same training over and over and over and over and over . . . . As you gain seniority, you will spent less time in the engine room and more time up front, where the operational stuff happens. But now we’re talking probably at least a year into your time on board a submarine following the year+ you already spent in your initial nuclear training. I regularly stood watch in the engine room right up until I rotated off my submarine, which was four years into my time in the Navy.
When out to sea, Department Heads and more senior division officers (a.k.a. you, eventually) stand watch as “Officer of the Deck” (OOD), which is usually the person who drives the ship (via orders to the Helm; not directly). Qualifying OOD is a prerequisite for qualifying Submarine Warfare, which every submarine line officer must do. Department Heads rarely stand watch in the engine room. However, one Department Head in particular, the “Engineer Officer” (“Eng” for short), bares overall responsibility for the engine room. He will spend very significant time dealing with it.
You will also regularly train on basic tactics, although the frequency will not compare to the time you spend on nuclear. The focus will be on launching missiles, which I personally found less interesting than the underwater dog fights depicted in movies. There will be some of the latter too, but you may or may not actually ever get to practice those skills as a first sea tour officer. Even if you do, it’s nothing like Hollywood.
I wrote that driving a surfaced submarine is an amazing experience. Driving a submerged submarine, while more tolerable than sitting in the engine room, is usually a bunch of sitting and staring–just like the engine room. The action happens at periscope depth (PD). Quick trips to PD can provide an enjoyable break from the monotony. However, sometimes you will spend your entire 6 hours long watch at PD, in pitch darkness (lights in the Control Room would give away your position by shining through the periscope like a flashlight), staring at waves. This is uncomfortable at best, and it makes some people seasick. I had at least one coworker projectile vomit across the Control Room after hours on the periscope.
If you interview and are offered entry into the NUPOC program, they will expect you to sign paperwork that day. I’m not telling you not to do it, but don’t go into it with any doubts. I recommend you find some other veterans not affiliated with your recruiters, and speak with them.
Dave you are a great asset to the people! Thanks so much for the great response and quick reply. I’ve just got a couple things more to ask of you.
From your experiences on the sub, what was the XO position like? I’ve been thinking, and I’ve figured out that I’m going in the military to eventually command a submarine, or go even further. The goal being to become someone important/a great leader of men. Were the jobs of the officers above you appealing? Or at least did they seem to have some role in the overall scheme of things? I guess I need to see if my idea of being a big wig in the military matches up with the reality.
Secondly, a shorter question, what is the likely-hood of being able to get my choice of sub (i.e fast attack rather than boomer)? Of course I know “needs of the Navy” applies.
Thank you so much stranger on the net! I’ve been talking to several people and plan on talking with some more veterans I know. Again thanks a lot, getting a multitude of opinions and experiences is really helping.
Division Officer –> Department Head –> XO –> CO
First, keep in mind that you’re posing this question to a guy who did one tour at sea, one tour on shore, and got out. I never wanted my superiors’ jobs. They had a few more perks than me but generally lived the same lifestyle, which I do not miss. As I noted in a response to another comment, the officers who stay seem to do so primarily for the money.
I served as acting Weapons Officer (a Department Head position) on my ship for a month or so, and I generally had a greater sense of purpose than when I was merely a division officer (I retained divisional responsibilities too during this period). However, Department Heads also have a much heavier work load than Division Officers, and they sit in more meetings.
Submarine XOs and COs are kings of tiny kingdoms. Nobody particularly cares about them off the ship. The non-military world certainly doesn’t care, and that’s the huge majority of the world. If you want to command a submarine, I wish you the best of luck. Just remember that there are other avenues to prominence. Also, go to the article by John Reed linked at the beginning, and find the part where he talks about promotions being random. I concur with his assessment.
Sometime during prototype, the hands-on phase of nuclear training, we all filled out our “dream sheets.” This is your written request to the detailer–the guy who assigns you to a ship–about what you want. Generally, people prioritize living in a certain area of the country, and that mostly dictates the type of submarine to which you will be assigned.
Boomer ports:
King’s Bay, GA
Bremerton, WA
Fast attack ports:
Pearl Harbor, HI
Norfolk, VA
San Diego, CA
Groton, CT
Guam
Dave,
Thank you so much for posting this, I have been searching online for hours trying to find someone who doesn’t think the NUPOC program is god’s gift to the world. Your input has given me quite a bit to think about, but I have some questions if you don’t mind answering.
At this point I am at a crossroads. I graduated with an engineering degree in 2009 with very few job opportunities. I applied for about a year and then gave up and went back to school for an MBA to diversify my skill set, obtained an internship, and with a year left of my MBA program I am still stuck with no job and increasing debts. Military has always intrigued but I always stayed away because my parents are strictly against it and I don’t like the notion of putting in such a commitment.
That being said, I am now stuck between following a career path that I do not want to take and will most likely hate or playing russian roulette with the submarine NUPOC program which I may enjoy or despise.
One of my questions is do you think that the program was just wrong for you but not necessarily a bad route for other people? The person who introduced me to the program went through it himself and said he loved it and would not take back any of it. By the way he’s not a recruiter and has no reason to lie to me.
Another question is in reference to what options are available after the commitment is up? One option is to reenlist but you don’t necessarily have to stay in the nuclear program, you can choose another path within the navy such as finance or logistics. If you choose not to reenlist you said that the experience you obtained will only be useful in obtaining a job as an operator at a power plant. What about getting a job in a government agency? Isn’t it easier to get a fed job by being in the military and having Top Clearance, especially in the NRC?
My final question is bout the pay. You said that if you stayed in the navy you would be making over 100k. The base pay for an O-3 is roughly 60k, so is the rest of the money coming from BAH? If so then the amount you make depends on where you live and if you have any dependents under you.
Dave, sorry for posting such a lengthy response with so many questions. I understand how serious this commitment is and I want to be absolutely sure that I want to do this before I sign anything.
If you hate your civilian career, you can just do something else–including joining the military secure in the knowledge that you did not enjoy your civilian career. If you immediately join the military and find that you do not like the military, you will spend at least 5 miserable years kicking yourself and wandering if things are better on the outside.
I have tried–successfully, I hope–to focus my article on the objective realities of the nuke experience rather than the program’s suitability for my personality. Being a nuke is what it is. The good comes with the bad. Do some people enjoy the experience? Of course. During my ~3 years assigned to an operational submarine, I met perhaps 2 to 5 people who genuinely seemed to love what they did . . . out of a couple of hundred people. Many more people than that decided to stay in the Navy after their first tour. Anecdotally, I will tell you that most seemed to do so primarily for financial reasons. The correlation between how much somebody complained about the Navy and rather or not they stayed in is weaker than one might expect.
If the Navy trains you for nuclear, it will not want to retrain you to do something else. That’s not cost efficient unless the Navy has a severe shortage of manpower somewhere. Don’t fall for the bait and switch. Doing something else is possible but not likely.
If you’re interested in the Navy and logistics, check out opportunities with the Supply Corp.
I should probably revise my article in response to recent events in my life. I’ve been at a new job for the past 10 months in a non-nuclear industry, and I definitely got hired based on my military background. The owner of the company is an ex-nuke. More generally, Navy nuclear experience is applicable to working in an industrial environment that involves the type of equipment found on a ship: electrical distribution systems, fans and HVAC, water filtration systems, pumps, etc. This includes typical commercial manufacturing environments.
Federal hiring uses a point system to evaluate applicants, and being a veteran is worth additional points. I’m not an expert on this, but my recollection from the few federal jobs I considered is that being a veteran is not worth a sufficient amount of points to tip the scales in your favor unless you are already among the top applicants for the position. The NRC was one of the federal agencies to which I applied. I submitted for an opportunity to be an inspector. They eventually sent me a response stating that I met the minimum qualifications but was not considered to be among the best qualified applicants. If you want to work for the NRC, what you really need is a commercial SRO license and experience operating a commercial plant.
In addition to my O-3 base pay, I received a number of other contributions at various times. BAH, BAS (food), and Sub Pay are always part of the equation. When you’re assigned to a sea-going billet, you get Sea Pay. In Hawaii, I also received COLA, which is very significant. You only get COLA outside the continental United States. When I moved from Hawaii back to the mainland for “shore tour,” I took a massive pay cut. (I could have stayed in Hawaii if I cared about avoiding this.)
Thanks for replying Dave.
I had the impression that the rigorous training and experience you gain from the NUPOC program means that you will be highly sought after in both the military and civilian sector. But the more research I do the more I’m starting to see that is not necessarily true. The Navy would love to keep you and would compensate you well, but if you decided to not reenlist then you would be looking to make about 50-70K.
I also liked the idea that after my 5-8 years of service I would have the option to do something else within the navy, but you believe that it is highly unlikely that the Navy would let you do that. I gotta say, the NUPOC program isn’t looking so glamorous anymore.
Hey Dave,
I have wanted to be an officer in the military since well, for a long time. I dropped the ball completely in high school by not applying to the military academies. The application process just didn’t really appeal to a 17 year old me back then. But as I’m approaching my senior year in college as a Mechanical Engineering major, I’ve been heavily recruited by the NUPOC program. Originally, my plan was rather simple. I was going to go pursue a commission through OCS the normal way. I’ve always wanted to fly, but my eyes are god awful. Not awful enough to DQ me from the Navy’s LASIK study, but the doctors recommend I wait until I’m 23-24 years old, which is at least 1-2 years out of college. Based on the small amount of prodding I’ve given my recruiter, the Navy is full up for pilot slots through OCS. Given the economy, pilots in the fleet are staying much longer. So, there’s not enough room for SNAs. This is true for all officer pipelines in most all the branches, everything is very cyclic. What’s you advice on this? Should I wait it out and see what things are like a few years down the road? I might add that most likely either way, pilot or nuke officer, it would be a career. Not a six and split. I guess it’s my personality, but I do feel a strong pull towards service of country, call me a patriot, but I would definitely feel good about it.
Back to NUPOC specifically if you don’t mind. The notion of operator, not designer doesn’t scare me at all really. I understand completely how things work and honestly it is something I’ve seen already in the civilian sector. I’ve had a fair amount of “engineering” experience even as an undergrad, and unless you are the most senior of senior engineers, you won’t be designing anything. You will be on the support teams and integration teams, but you are not the one designing stuff. Sure, you give input on ideas, but ultimately your name is no where to be found. This is my experience in the defense and military/commercial aviation sectors, as I have a specialization in aerospace engineering. This is where I would be looking for work if I don’t join the Navy. Basically, my point is that I’m not surprised they are training you to keep watch. What I am curious about is how hard it is to climb the ranks. Usually, after honoring your commitment, you discharge at O-3. Do you know anything about the experience from 0-4 to 0-6 as a nuclear officer? Also do you have any information about the Reactor Engineer path?
I know that’s a wall of text, and there’s a lot of questions in there. Thanks for taking the time to read it all over. Gist is, I’ve always wanted to be a military officer. Wanted to be a pilot, might be getting pulled around a little by the recruiter, not sure. Finally, I’m being heavily recruited by the NUPOC program all the sudden, and not quite sure what to make of it.
Zack,
If you want to be a pilot, be a pilot. The recruiters are jerking you around to fill their quotas. They have a point system for recruitment. A prospective Surface Warfare Officer (SWO) is 1 point; pilots are 5 points; nukes are 25 points (numbers as of the late 90s; might be different now). You should be able to understand their motivation.
Time seems to go by much faster once you’re out of school. A couple of years is nothing. I advise you to wait it out if you’re unsure unless your personal finances preclude doing so.
Anyone who isn’t conspicuously incompetent should make O-4. If you go back for a second tour on a submarine as a Department Head, you will put on O-4 sometime during that tour. O-5 is the first real cut. If you screen for XO and don’t screw that up, you should make O-5. You might still make O-5 if you don’t screen for XO, but it is much less likely. If you command a submarine (as an O-5) and don’t screw that up, you’ll probably make O-6. After that, I couldn’t tell you. Politics, including who you know, is a big part of it all (in and out of the military). I recommend you read the relevant part of the article linked at the beginning of this post. John Reed discusses promotions in the military, and I agree with his assessment that they are largely arbitrary.
I do not have any information about the Reactor Engineer opportunity.
I hope you find this useful.
Dave
Dave,
I don’t think I mentioned it in my comment earlier, but thank you for posting this information.
The NUPOC program does offer a lot of financial incentive, but the money is not a deciding factor for me. NUPOC seems like a good way to use my technical background even if it is at an operator level to advance through the ranks to become a carrier or sub commander. Then again, I always dreamed of flying until they kicked me out.
Thanks again for the gouge, I’ll have a talk with my recruiter and see what he says about regular OCS packages.
Thanks for all the info. After reading your post, I had an epiphany. I began to become completely honest with myself. I am REALLY looking into NUPOC for the money. I’m not sure that I’ll be satisfied with a nuclear job in the Navy.
Quick bio:
Freshman in college Industrial & Systems engineering major, so for 3.8gpa
I’m conflicted with something, I want my military experience to really be military. I want to be able to look back on my time in the military and say:
1) It wasn’t a waste of time
2) I enjoyed doing it
3) If i could choose to I’d do it again
Money seems to be the only perk for a Navy Nuke Officer, life on a submarine,and on a ship seems pretty dull, and the intensity and lessons of OCS doesn’t seem like it would carry. Overall, I’m beginning to feel as though Navy might not be my personality. These are all the reasons why I keep going back to commissioning to Marines.
There’s only a few things keeping me from Marines though
1) I need money for school, and the Marines don’t give enough
2) I would like job security for when I get out the Corps
Or would Air Force be a better fit?
I really would like to get into the business side of engineering, which is why I’m ISYE, I eventually want to obtain my MBA. My biggest concern right now is, I NEED money for school, is there a commissioning program that can satisfy my financial needs as well as career outlook?
I’m also not completely sure what job in the military I would do, I’m still looking for guidance. I really would rather not do ROTC, but if it’s what I HAVE to do I will.
I’m glad you found this information useful.
I agree with your presumption that OCS training does not necessarily translate to useful habits after the military. My interpretation of the experience–and military indoctrination in general–is that its primary purpose is to condition you to think bureaucratically. The people administering the “training” genuinely don’t think that’s what they’re doing, but I’ve read enough about group psychology and brainwashing techniques to recognize military indoctrination for what it is.
Note that I wrote “does not necessarily translate . . . .” Having worked in corporate America for some years now, I can tell you that bureaucratic thinking is alive and well in the civilian world as well. At any rate, the military will try to condition you to behave in a particular manner, and the utility of that behavior will depend on the culture of your future place of employment. You have no guarantees.
If you want to work in commercial nuclear or a manufacturing environment, serving in the Navy will probably help you get your foot in the door. If you’re not sure you want the nuke experience, you’re playing roulette by joining. Five years is a loooooonnnnnnnnggg time to do something you do not enjoy, and you will spend alllloooooootttttt of time at work.
If you need money now, why not just get loans? College debt is a big deal, but you can soften the blow enormously by living frugally for a few years after you graduate. Just avoid the normal traps: house, car, wife, kids, etc. Then go to work for a large employer that offers tuition reimbursement as a benefit. Get your MBA on their dime.
If you decide to join the Navy, definitely go NUPOC instead of ROTC. NUPOC is a much better deal.
Finally, I cannot offer you any meaningful advice about the USMC or Air Force other than to recommend that you speak with somebody who served in whatever programs interest you.
Thanks a lot for the reply, you gave me a lot to consider. I’m a bit lost now, the only part of NUPOC I really see myself “enjoying” is Power School Instructor, what’s your take on that?
I’ve had my heart set on the military for a long time now, but to be honest, I’m not completely sold on if the 4-6 years put in would be worth the time. All I know is that it’s a secure job and the idea of leading sounds appealing.
So lately I’ve been considering the civilian path, but I’ve never educated myself on the topic. To be honest, I enjoy the challenges of engineering so far, but I’m not completely sure that this is what I want to “do.” I enjoy the idea of systems and operations, but I see myself more so in a management role.
Well I guess that’s a personal issue, I was just hoping to get your input on a few of those topics
Sorry for the delay in responding. I don’t recall getting a notification about your post.
I have no general opinion on Power School instructors. Some people are commissioned directly as limited duty officers expressly to instruct at Power School. Others serve on a ship and instruct at Power School as a “shore tour.” I recall having good and bad instructors in both categories when I was a Power School student. After four years, the limited duty officers either got out of the Navy or “classed up” to serve in other billets requiring nuclear trained officers. That’s all I know about that.
The military sells “leadership” to prospects but, in the Navy at least, this is not particularly honest. I discussed that in the post. The nuclear Navy will make you a manager, not a leader. You will not be in a position to lead much of anything as a Division Officer (first sea tour officer). The Division Officer is primarily an administrative hurdle for his division. Standing watch would be your real job. You could probably assert yourself as a leader during your Department Head tour, but now we’re talking about 6 years into your service. What else could you do in those 6 years? Consider the opportunity cost.
Dave,I found your article to be extremely informative and I appreciate you providing an unbiased view of the program. It provided excellent insight and has answered a lot of questions my recruiter has not addressed.Anyways, I am a senior physics major and have been seriously considering the NUPOC program as of lately. I have been on countless interviews with civilian companies with no real luck…the economy just isn’t what it used to be when I entered school. So, in hindsight, I am considering the nuke program for financial stability and the “prestige” of the job. The time away and boredom don’t really scare me away.I have been in talks with a recruiter and I am somewhat familiar with the process. However, I wanted to ask you about the entry requirements for the program. The recruiter I am in talks with has told me that out of all of the applications, the average person selected has had around a 3.3 GPA. My only concern is that I am going to finish school somewhere around the 2.5 range. This is not because I am lazy or a slacker on my schoolwork by any means. However, it is because my father passed away from cancer and my mother was just diagnosed recently…I guess everything just happened at the wrong time and it has taken a big toll on me. Besides that, I have good grades in my core engineering classes (thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, calculus, physics, etc.).I was just wondering, how selective is the process really?From your standpoint would I even have a shot at getting in?The recruiter is somewhat aware of my situation and wants me to write a letter explaining my situation along with my transcripts. I was curious to know if they “weigh” these fundamental courses more substantially?I really don’t want illness in the family to hold me back from achieving greatness because I know I can do the classwork. As someone who has been through the program, are there any tips you could offer me?Thank you in advance!
I’m glad you found this helpful, Dennis. If you think the nuclear Navy might be right for you, apply with confidence. That’s probably the best advice I can give you. Your grades are what they are. Worrying about them won’t help you. If the recruiters are still courting you, they’re interested. If they offer to take you to D.C. to interview with the Director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion, you meet the requirements. Calmly answer the admiral’s questions, and you’re most likely in. The acceptance rate is consistently above 80%.I went through training with a guy who, at that time, finished with the highest grades ever for an officer student. His college GPA was around 2.8, and he took five years to graduate. I also went through training with people who have liberal arts degrees. I claim no expert knowledge of the Navy’s exact standards and methods of selection these days, but what you’ve written does not lead me to believe that you couldn’t get in.
So I am currently in DEP for NUC. I am not a nerd or an antisocialist. I don’t try to act smart but am, and am very interested in the money of being a NUC but after the research I did it sounds like they have no social life at all and are disliked by everybody. Is this true, and what is the social life of a NUC really like. Not coming from my recruiter.
Hi, Matt. If you struggle during the training pipeline, you will have no life because you will spend all of your waking time at work. Literally. After the pipeline . . .The military is a lifestyle, whether you like that or not. Working long, irregular hours and moving frequently, as you will do in any military branch, makes it more difficult to enjoy the diversity of meeting non-military people and to engage in hobbies that require a regular schedule. Rather that amounts to having no life depends on your tastes. If you don’t care to spend your precious free time around people you already see 6+ days a week, or if you don’t care to frequent bars, you will need to get very creative.The nuke versus non-nuke feud primarily concerns enlisted sailors. It’s completely childish, and I don’t recommend worrying about it.
Dave,I know that most of your experience is completely within the nuclear program so maybe you won’t be able to answer this: It is apparent that as a SWO(N) one is more of an “operator” than an “engineer”, do you know if programs such as Engineering Duty Officers or the Civil Engineering Corp is a better path to do more “engineering”??I haven’t been able to find too much info on EDOs.Thanks for this website!Ben
You’re welcome, Ben. I’m glad you find this information useful.Nuclear trained surface and subsurface officers stand Engineering Duty Officer periodically while the reactor is shutdown. It is the in-port equivalent of Engineering Officer of the Watch, which is an at-sea responsibility. As an unrestricted line officer (most officers), you would also have other duties not specific to the propulsion plant.Some people get commissioned as limited duty officers (LDOs) in the nuclear EDO pipeline. I don’t know much about that program in terms of how to go about getting into it, but I can tell you with confidence that it does not involve engineering–using the collegiate definition of the word–any more than the regular Navy nuclear program. As a LDO nuclear EDO, you deal with all nuclear, all the time. You will never, for example, drive the ship. There’s probably a non-nuclear EDO program, but that would just be the analogous job in non-nuclear facilities.I worked with some CEC officers during my last year in the military (my “shore tour”). You should speak with a veteran CEC officer if you want details, but my impression, for what it’s worth, is that being a CEC officer is like being the foreman of a construction team. You’re not going to do the work of a civilian architect or civil engineer.In general, military personnel operate and maintenance equipment designed and assembled by military contractors: GE, Honeywell, Raytheon, etc.
thanks so much for the info! I actually have an appointment to speak with a CEC officer this tuesday so I will be learning more soon!It sounds like EDOs spend less time at sea and more time at shipyards than say a SWO(N). Is this true or do EDOs have equally as long deployments?
My understanding of EDO officers is that they live in the shipyard. Let me be clear that this is outside my direct experience, so I could be wrong.
Dave–Thanks so much for posting this information online. It is the most comprehensive on the NUPOC program I’ve seen in the past 3 years since I’ve been considering it.I’m currently a Nuclear Engineering student whom the recruiters have been trying to snag for years with an increasingly more lucrative signing-bonus. They asked me to take a tour of a docking facility and a “boomer” sub, then fill out the NUPOC app… so I did, but never submitted it because I got a funny feeling that they were hiding information from me. For awhile I forgot about it, then recently my interested has been sparked by a shifting economy and watching private sector job cuts from the classroom. I’ve got about 2 years left in school and I’m concerned about the job market in the next couple years, even in engineering and utility companies.I’ve talked to people in the military (especially nuclear Navy) and they all say the same thing: don’t join unless YOU want to, because it can be repetitive and monotonous. I’m still considering the program, but my reasons would be job security, health care benefits, compensation, and a more secure marriage (for financial reasons)–not because I want to join the Navy for any particular reason. I don’t really like the idea of regimented living, I’m not a great test taker, and I loath regurgitation which serves no higher purpose. Would this be a death warrant? I don’t mind taking “calculated risks,” but I fear making a 5.5 year commitment without enough relevant information combined with the permanence of that choice leaves no room for correcting that mistake.If you could take it back you wouldn’t join, but do you have any additional thoughts in this case? Thanks again for posting this blog it’s been helpful.
You’re welcome, Jay. I’m glad you found this information useful.“. . . not because I want to join the Navy for any particular reason. I don’t really like the idea of regimented living, I’m not a great test taker, and I loath regurgitation which serves no higher purpose. Would this be a death warrant?”Yes, you would be setting yourself up for complete misery.“. . .do you have any additional thoughts in this case?”Check out the commercial nuclear industry. It has the same benefits as military nuclear experience without many of the negatives. As a new graduate, you should focus on opportunities with names like: auxiliary operator, non-licensed operator, plant operator, etc. These are all synonyms for the people who actually operate equipment out in the plant.
I have had much trouble finding helpful information on this topic, thank you for all the information you have supplied.I am a high school senior looking to join the navy for financial stability and a meaningful life experience. The recruiter suggested i join the nuc field and it sounded very intellectually engaging. Science is one of my favorite subjects and i do like the idea of my career involving science in some way. this is why I felt this was the right field for me.My brother who is in the navy told me that his friends were very stressed out in the training school and ended up failing due to the high standards and expectations. I was specifically curious on what the school is like. I read somewhere else that you have to go to class for 8 hrs and “night study” for eight more. is this true?I was extremely deterred by your description of the monotony and boring feel of the job. From that it doesn’t seem very mentally engaging. I’m much more interested in conceptual science and not in memorizing a bunch of things and regurgitating them when necessary.
You’re welcome, Jessey.The Navy nuclear training pipeline is about a year long. If you enlist, you will first attend “A School,” which lasts about three months.The first 6 months of nuclear training is classroom training. You will work the standard 7am to 4pm (0700 to 1600, for you military types) workday. How long you stay at work after 4pm depends on how well you perform on your tests. You might spend very little extra time, or you might spend 30 extra hours a week.The second 6 months of nuclear training is hands on operational experience at a “prototype.” You will work a rotating shift schedule, and many or most work days are 12 hours long. The bottom line is that you will spend a lot of time at work during this phase regardless of how well you do.In general, if you join any branch of the military, expect to spend a lot of time at work.
I’ve found the information on this site very helpful, as I can finally say that some unbiased substantiation is present; as opposed to the “yes, it’s all good” recruiter responses I commonly encounter. I’m an electrical engineering major that’s considering NUPOC, and I have a question: do they allow people to bring textbooks aboard that aren’t related to nuclear operations? I ask this because I’m constantly learning new subjects, just to satisfy my curiosity: like nuclear engineering, astronautical eng., philosophy, mathematics, statistical mechanics, thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, and many others.I’m also wondering if the standard officer nuke training incorporates a lot of nuclear physics or post-calculus reactor dynamics; on a more general level I wanna know what subjects they do teach at the undergraduate, and also graduate level (with level specified). Oh, and it would be nice to know how often partial derivatives are seen therein. I want to attend graduate school for “hardcore” physics or engineering, like for a thesis on “solutions to non-linear Schrodinger equation”. Thanks for your time…
Yes, you can bring whatever books you want out to sea with you, but you will not be able to read them while you’re on watch.Navy nuclear training is vocational training. Comparing it to graduate school, as recruiters love to do, is meaningless. It’s apples to oranges. The Navy will teach you what you need to know to be a proficient operator. The curriculum will not qualify you to design nuclear reactors. There’s some nuclear physics and some calculus, but there are no partial differential equations.If you want to go to graduate school and are wondering how to pay for it, I suggest getting a job with a large employer who will offer you tuition reimbursement.
Dave, my son is interested in the NUPOC program. If he decides to go surface (SWO), is he assured to get it if accepted into the program? Have you seen others ask for (SWO) and then be sent to subs after they leave OCS?
Hi, Bob. Everyone who attends OCS has a “designator.” For example, mine was “subnuc” (submarine nuclear). I cannot say what happened to everyone in my class after graduation and commissioning, but I can tell you that nobody had their designator changed during OCS unless they were medically disqualified from their first choice (which is more of an issue with prospective pilots). My class had 60-something candidates.I originally told my recruiters that I wanted to go surface and serve on an aircraft carrier. At some point, they called me and told me that I would have a better chance of getting into the program if I chose subs. Naive, 20 years old Dave responded, “Well, okay. My first choice is to be in the program.” In hindsight, they probably just wanted to shift their numbers to meet a quota. Getting accepted for surface nuke doesn’t seem to be any different than going submarines.
I am an active duty nuclear-trained submarine officer currently on shore duty. The information provided on this site is the most accurate I have seen. Do not allow the signing bonus to bait you into making a hasty decision.
Thanks for the backup, shipmate. Fair winds and following seas.
Hi Dave,Thanks for the info it was good to have a source not as biased as a recruiter or active duty officer. I am currently a senior in Nuclear Engineering with a 3.7 GPA, I want to get a PhD someday, however my wife and I are not in the most finacialy conducive situation to spend 4 more years in college even with a fellowship. We also want to start a family sooner than later. My father was in the army my whole live so I think I’ve got a good idea of the stresses it puts on a family. I also feel that the NUPOC program is a life experiance that I would like to have. I just wanted to know your thoughts on serving my 6 years then going back to school once we are a little more financially stable. Thanks again and sorry for the long post.
I’m glad to hear you found this information useful, Aaron. Are you interested in NUPOC primarily because of the opportunity to work with nuclear power or primarily because you want to serve in the Navy?In the case of the former, I would recommend exploring opportunities with the commercial nuclear power industry before you even think about committing to the Navy. That industry is undermanned, pays well, and is dominated by large corporations that commonly offer tuition reimbursement as an employment benefit.In the case of the latter, I can only wish you good luck. You probably know a lot about military life from the point of view of a dependent, but that is not the same as seeing it from the point of view of an active duty service member. The problem isn’t what the military offers in the way of training (it generally delivers in that regard); the problem is everything else that comes with it: the juvenile work environment, “hurry up and wait,” enhanced probability of death at a young age, etc. What does your father think about the prospect of your joining? Just be sure to get a few more opinions from non-recruiters. Make sure you really understand what you will be getting if you sign on the dotted line.Officer commitments are for 5 years on active duty; enlisted commitments are for 6. I want to make sure you understand that the NUPOC program is a commissioning path–a way to become an officer. I hope some recruiter isn’t trying to get you to enlist even though you will soon be a college graduate.Check out the GI Bill website to find out if it would even pay enough to cover your graduate education. I will eventually get an MBA using my employer’s tuition reimbursement program, and going back to school will enable me to collect on the GI Bill money. So, for me, the GI Bill is gravy. It wouldn’t cover tuition at a top tier business school even though I qualify for the maximum amount.Also keep in mind the statistics–only 30% of GI Bill eligible veterans complete a degree with the money. The DoD makes a profit from the service members paying into the fund. That’s the blunt truth about why they offer it.
Dave,Thanks for the useful website.. I am currently considering joining NUPOC. As an officer that is committed for five years.. how will the tours work out?? How often will you be on a shore tour?? I’m married and I’m concerned about how long I may be gone from my wife.. Also, if I’m on a sub, how much communication will I have with my wife?? I realize that this could vary depending on what type of sub or boat your on but any information is helpful as I think about this very important decision.Thanks!
You’re welcome, Ben. Thanks for commenting.If you go submarines, your first ~14 months as a new officer will be training. Then you will serve on a submarine for about 3 years before you go to shore tour, or you will finish your contractual obligation on the ship if you do not want to go to shore tour. Shore tours typically last 1 or 2 years, but they can be longer for some assignments. The path is slightly different if you go surface ships. If you stay Navy, you will go back for more training and then another sea tour as a “Department Head” after your first shore tour.The military in any capacity is rough on personal relationships. Deployments occur about every 18 months in the Navy and are nominally 6 months long, but they can be longer. My 2003 deployment lasted for 7.5 months. The submarine we relieved had been driving circles in the Persian Gulf for 10 months!The good news is that modern submarines are not completely isolated. You can send and receive e-mail, which is a huge quality of life boost. Getting messages from friends and family while you’re out to sea is like opening Christmas presents.There is also a chance that you could be sent to Iraq, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa, or another such place for 6 to 18 months. Read about individual augmentation (IA). IAs where very common when I was on shore tour in 2006. In fact, I got nominated three times to go to Iraq for a year, but I was not selected from the nominees. I don’t know how frequently this goes on these days, but everybody considering joining the Navy or Air Force should be aware of IA because it’s essentially a back door draft.
Hi Dave,Thank you for the useful information. The information about individual augmentation is very shocking; I never thought a nuke would be eligible for this type of thing. Don’t they claim that nukes are in high demand, why would they send them to Iraq or Afghanistan, I am sure there are no nuclear reactors there.Also, can you expand some more on the individual augmentation (IA). Is it voluntary, and if you go what would you do there?
IA is the practice of using an individual from a Navy or Air Force unit to augment an Army unit. When I was dealing with IA in 2006, people had the opportunity to volunteer whenever there was a call for augmentees. If nobody volunteered, the command receiving the call for names selected people. I was not a volunteer, and I probably would have been selected the third time I was nominated had my request for release from active duty not been approved. (I was at the end of my commitment and received an honorable discharge.)IA happens because the Army needs warm bodies. For that reason, I cannot make any promises about what you would do as an augmentee. I knew of sailors working communications bunkers in Iraq, working public affairs in Afghanistan (with zero relevant experience, I might add), and manning 50-cal. machine guns on convoy trucks. Your guess is as good as mine these days.
Thank you Dave, you are a great source of information. I am seriously considering NUPOC as an option and the information posted here is welcomed.Getting back to your original post, the only true things that are on the table is the leadership experience and the good pay. From the information I have gathered, your other points are correct. For example, civilian nuclear operators “laugh” at the technology and complexity of the navy’s nuclear reactors. There is also the fact that there is no design involved in the program, hence the term “engineering” is being used loosely. Your point on excitement is pretty much common sense, how much fun can you have on a ship or sub? After asking my brother which served in a carrier, he confirmed that.Now a few questions, did your experience as a nuke help secure a good job? Out of the time you were in the navy, how much was at sea? How difficult was power school and prototype, how much did you enjoy that time? Did you earn close to $100K all the years you were in? Did you ever regret your decision while you were in? Do you regret it now that you are out?Hey Dave, sorry for the long post but you went through the process and are free to tell the truth, unlike active duty personnel.Thanks
I was assigned to a sea-going command for about 33 months, which is typical. Of that time, I was actually under water for approximately 1 year aggregate. Most of this was my ship’s 7.5 months long deployment in 2003. You should know that you would be “standing duty” about twice a week in port, which means you spend those nights on board. This usually includes a day of the weekend about twice every three weeks. So plan on working six days a week even when your ship is tied to a pier.You will not gross over $100k in a year unless you come back to another ship as a Department Head. The military pay scale gives you the base pay rates. If you live outside the continental United States (a.k.a. Hawaii, for submariners), you will get “cost of living allowance” (COLA), which is very significant.Navy nuclear training has little to do with analytical ability and everything to do with memorizing large quantities of out-of-context information in a short amount of time. I did well as an undergraduate and finished in 3.5 years. I performed as well as any of my Navy peers when it came to operating, but I continually struggled with regurgitating information for written tests. The result is that I basically lived at work. If you do well, you will find the training pipeline tolerable. Otherwise, you will have no life at all. Two enlisted students committed suicide while I was in the “prototype” phase of training, and another snapped. That is the kind of pressure people are under and the kind of environment the military creates. Your recruiter will blame the individuals; don’t buy it.I recently decided to get back into nuclear power. The commercial nuclear power industry pays very well, and my Navy experience is directly responsible for my current occupation. The problem is that I’m doing the same job I did in the Navy, supervising operations, when I want to be involved on the business end of things. Time will tell if I can make this transition smoothly. My Navy service at least got me into the energy industry, so I give it credit for that.With some years in hindsight and a relatively high paying job directly related to my experience in the Navy, I tell you without hesitation that I would not do it again. People who are getting out of the military usually go through something called the Transition Assistance Program (TAP), which includes taking the Myers-Briggs personality test. My results labeled me as a “utilitarian” personality, an assessment with which I completely agree. The veteran facilitating the seminar emphatically stated that, “We run utilitarians out of the military faster than (something I don’t remember)!” I remember thinking, “Wow, I wish somebody would have told me that before I became an indentured servant.” That’s the bottom line for me–the military was completely wrong for my personality. If you don’t like your first civilian job, you just get another. If you don’t like the military, you suffer until your time is up. Spending the majority of my 20s doing something I did not enjoy is an opportunity cost I would not pay again.Of course, your personality might have little in common with mine. For what reasons are you considering the program?
I wanted to serve as an officer in any of the military branches. Looking for the branches which offered something related to engineering, I found the Air Force which was my first choice and then I learned about NUPOC. The very first thing that attracted me to it was the pay while in school, but that is not a factor anymore since I graduate April 2010. Then, there was the leadership experience and learning about nuclear power, having that experience to obtain a good job later. Those are the main reasons I considered the program.But you made a very good point, it is important to determine whether that is something you want to do. As you can see my reasons are not that I like nuclear power or the navy. Like my brother told me, being in a ship or a sub for 6 months is no life, and power school and prototype are in the same category. After 5 hard years of studying and working, I feel that what I really need is job that allows me to live a good life. I want to have a relationship; I want to be able to do things I enjoy after work. It seems like the navy will not offer me that.Dave thank you for responding; do you know if the Air Force side is basically the same thing?
Of all the military people I’ve met, the Air Force people seemed the least disgruntled about their jobs. The best advice I can give you is find an Air Force veteran who has gone through the program in which you are interested.
Hey thanks for the good information. I’m a college freshman, just looking into this stuff ’cause the money’s really attractive. I got some questions that maybe you could help me with:There a place to workout on the submarine? Free weights, treadmills.Say I want to go to graduate school after my time’s up; this pretty feasible? Any anecdotes?Given the above, you think I’ll have time/room/allowance to bring textbooks and continue learning while I’m in the sub?Is it like movies where we’d dock and be able to go into the port city for some old-fashioned relaxation?Thanks a bundle.
Submarines typically have a couple of dumbells, a treadmill, and a collapsable bench shoved in a corner somewhere. So the answer to your first question is “yes,” although most people do not exercise on board because it is inconvenient. Overweight submariners are common.Once you’re out of the military, there’s nothing to stop you from going to graduate school. I spent the last year of my military service on “shore tour” in Great Lakes, IL. A couple of my peers completed MBAs at Northwestern and University of Chicago.Continued learning on a submarine is improbable. A few of my coworkers tried to complete distance learning courses, but none succeeded.Getting “old-fashioned relaxation” is not guaranteed, as I wrote above.
Thanks for this article, it is very helpful. I wanted to go into the nuclear Navy. After reading this article and doing research on my own I soon realized that it was not what they claimed.
I’m happy to have provided you with useful information, Bill. Thanks for commenting.