Last updated: 24 May 2020 (Now with 13.5 years of hindsight!)
Perhaps you, or somebody for whom you care, is considering joining the Navy’s “NUclear Propulsion Officer Candidate (NUPOC)” program. You might already have heard the recruiters promising the world. I will provide you with one objective critique of the “nuke” experience in terms of what the Navy promises versus what it delivers.
Author and Army veteran John T. Reed inspired me to write this with his article, “Should you go to, or stay at, West Point?” Mr. Reed’s observations about the Army are utterly relevant to the Navy. He offers a lot of valuable insight into military leadership and the general value of military service.
At the age of 20, I committed to serve in the U.S. Navy via the NUPOC delayed commissioning program. I attended OCS a month after graduating from college, received a commission as an ensign (O-1), served on active duty for 5.5 years, and honorably left active duty as a lieutenant (O-3). I worked on a Los Angeles class fast attack submarine for about 3 years of my active duty experience, which included a deployment to the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean in 2003 in support of the United States’ invasion of Iraq. The rest of my time was training and shore based work (a.k.a. “shore tour”).
Along the way, I qualified as a “Nuclear Engineer Officer,” and my last at-sea commanding officer formally recommended me for “Department Head.” This indicates that I was deemed sufficiently competent to continue in the Navy on a trajectory towards command at sea, had I chosen to do so.
My following analysis of what the Navy nuclear program promises to do for you is based on claims presented on the Navy’s recruiting websites and my personal recollections of interacting with recruiters. If you are thinking about going the enlisted route, my comments should generally still be relevant, although I highly recommend speaking with veteran enlisted nukes. Give no weight to second hand information from spouses and mothers or to promises coming from people still in the military about what service in the program will do for them after they get out. The latter category includes military recruiters and ROTC staff.
Note that nukeworker.com and nupocaccessions.blogspot.com are full of Navy recruiters. A former recruiter who commented on this article a few times is the author of the latter.
The Short Version
Here’s the punchline in advance in case you’re pressed for time:
Question: “Should you join the nuclear Navy?”
Answer: “Probably not.” (This is Mr. Reed’s answer to, “Should you go to . . . West Point?” It is also a wonderfully concise and appropriate answer to the above question.)
Join the nuclear Navy, or any military branch, if you want to have that experience for its own sake. Otherwise, even if military service would not be “lost time” for you, it probably would not be the path of least resistance to your goals, and the opportunity cost is exceptionally high.
The Sales Pitch vs. Reality
Claim: The Navy’s nuclear program is an elite nuclear engineering program.
FALSE. You will not research or design anything while in the Navy, which is contrary to what the word engineering implies to a student. The recruiters technically aren’t lying because the broader, post-academic use of engineering includes what nukes actually do, but the recruiters know they are misleading you.
The Navy will train you to be a nuclear operator. If you want to be a nuclear engineer, get a relevant engineering degree, and go to work for a reactor manufacturer, such as General Electric or Westinghouse.
The program is not as selective as recruiters advertise. Actual acceptance percentages vary by year, but they are generally above 80%. I interviewed with the Director of Naval Nuclear Propulsion, a four star admiral, with a group of around 20 people, and the admiral only declined one interviewee.
Claim: Naval Nuclear Power School is equivalent to graduate level education in [whatever].
MEANINGLESS. Some employers prefer graduate degrees for certain positions. You either have one, or you don’t. If you don’t, your resume goes in the “do not interview” stack.
APPLES-TO-ORANGES. My Power School classmate, who has a bachelors degree in nuclear engineering, described the Navy curriculum as “hella-watered-down.” The Navy provides vocational training for nuclear operation, and the primary trait necessary to excel is the capacity for rapid, verbatim memorization and subsequent quick recall of technical documents. This is a sharp contrast with my graduate school experience, where I used my creativity and conceptual understanding to solve open-ended problems.
Claim: Excitement!!! Being a Navy nuke/submariner is soooo exciting!!!!
FALSE. There is no glory or excitement in nuclear operation. It is utterly monotonous, repetitive, and mind-numbing. In the nuclear world, boring is good.
A typical shift (“standing watch”) involves prolonged sitting, staring at meters and gauges, reviewing logs of those instruments’ indications, listening to people complain about the Navy, listening to people discuss what they will do when they get out of the Navy, listening to people complain about other people on the ship, and little more.
Your recruiter might tell you this is purely a matter of opinion. It isn’t. If you don’t believe me, ask other veterans. This experience is in no way unique to me or my former submarine.
At sea, you will stand watch for 6 hours at a time, have 12 (while you lack seniority) or 18 (when you have seniority) hours off watch during which you will eat, train, and sleep, and then you will repeat the cycle. Ship-wide activities, such as casualty drills or cleaning marathons (“field day”), that require everybody to be up will sometimes disrupt your sleep schedule.
In port, you will fill out a lot of paperwork related to maintenance, train, and “stand duty” every 3 to 5 days. On duty days, you will sleep on the ship. Plan on working 6 days a week in port.
Such is life as long as you are attached to a submarine. During the 33 months I was assigned to a submarine, I spent about a year, in aggregate, actually under water. Most of that was the deployment.
Claim: Serve your country! You will do important work that makes the nation and world safer.
If you join the military, you will certainly be told frequently that this statement is true. However, it is HIGHLY DEBATABLE.
The propaganda about service to country is patriotic nonsense. The military serves the President of the United States and, by proxy, the agenda of entrenched power brokers. If you are seriously considering joining the military, your interests are probably not aligned with the interests of entrenched powers.
As a “War on Terror” veteran, I emphatically recommend reading War is a Racket, written by a two-times Medal of Honor recipient, before you sign any contracts.
Claim: Fast-track your civilian career! You will be highly desirable to industry after you leave the military.
If you want to go into one of the civilian occupations common for former nukes (more on this later), Navy nuclear service might be a parallel path to those occupations. Otherwise, you are probably just sacrificing 5+ years of civilian industry experience, which is a very high opportunity cost for somebody right out of school.
Some companies, such as General Electric, have recruiting pipelines for former military officers. Note that I write “military officers” generally; not “Navy nuke officers” in particular. The suggestion that employers will crawl over each other to hire you because you were in the nuke program is unequivocally FALSE. Employers look for directly relevant experience on your resume. If it isn’t there—and it probably isn’t if you’re trying to do something dissimilar from what you did in the military—you will most likely not be interviewed.
Many transitioning and veteran military officers attend hiring conferences organized by military-to-corporate recruiting firms like Orion International and Lucas Group. Most of the jobs on offer to ex-officers are entry/mid-manager positions in some kind of production/manufacturing environment at a large company. (As on a submarine, your job would be to manage technicians who keep equipment running.) As of early 2011, the last time I explored these offerings, most pay in the range of $55k-$85k annually. That’s nothing you can’t get with a technical degree and 5 years in civilian industry. For the most desirable degrees, you can exceed that pay range right out of college. I’m sure the pay range has shifted upwards since 2011, but that’s also true for the most desirable degrees pay.
As an ex-nuke officer or qualified senior enlisted person, you can immediately make six-figures at a commercial nuclear plant, but your life will be similar to how I described life on a ship–long, monotonous hours. If you want to climb the operations ladder at a civilian nuclear generating station, the Navy is one path to consider, but it is not the only path.
If you’re specifically interested in nuclear, I recommend learning about the commercial nuclear industry before you make any decisions about joining the Navy. Explore opportunities with names like “plant operator,” “auxiliary operator,” and “non-licensed operator.” These are synonyms for the people who actually operate equipment in a commercial plant (as opposed to the NRC-licensed operators in the control room).
Claim: Become a leader of men! You will gain valuable leadership experience at a young age.
UPDATE 4 January 2020: Given my desire to keep this article objective, and given that “leadership” is inherently subjective, I have decided I will break out this section into a separate article for a more thorough treatment. I’m not sure when it will be ready. It’s not high on my priority list.
THE NAVY WILL MAKE YOU A SUPERVISOR. John Reed writes at length about military “leadership.” If you read nothing else that he wrote, read that section. I’m not sure I agree with his assertion that leaders are born and cannot be made, but he nails it when he discusses the military’s emphasis on “form over substance” and “process over results.” I also recommend reading this article by Dilbert author and cartoonist Scott Adams.
The Navy delivered on its promise of putting me in charge of people at a young age. However, what I learned, mostly by trial and error, was the art of supervision. Junior submarine officers are supervisors, not leaders. There’s some value in that experience, but it isn’t what the recruiters are selling.
Enlisted caveat: While this is a benefit for young officers, it is a detriment for enlisted nuclear submarine sailors. Supervising reactor plant operations is primarily the role of the officers lowest in rank and seniority. This means that enlisted nuclear personnel constantly have to deal with the least experienced officers to get anything accomplished.
Every aspect of submarine life transpires according to written instructions. The “Plan of the Day” and the watch bill tell you where to be and what to do. Officers stand supervisory watches, but they are still slaves to the schedule. Given that reality, nobody leads much of anything in the same manner that a first-line supervisor in a factory has no authority to alter the production line; he just keeps it running.
After a while, I felt like a glorified secretary. Most of my lessons about leadership occurred from analyzing my own mistakes while observing copious examples of “what not to do.”
This is another area where your recruiter is likely to tell you that I am merely expressing my opinion or otherwise respond ad hominem. I suggest that you gather input from veteran enlisted submarine sailors. Ask some lifers, and ask some guys who got out after their first or second enlistment.
Claim: Driving a surfaced submarine is an amazing experience.
TRUE. My best Navy memory is of the time I stood “Surfaced Officer of the Deck” as we approached Australia. The weather was great, and the water was calm. The continent was rising up in front of me. I hadn’t been qualified to do this for very long but, at that moment, it was just me, another guy serving as my lookout, and the $900M warship upon which I sat.
If only these types of things had occupied more than about 0.12% (literally) of my total time in the military . . . (sigh).
Claim: See the world!
NOT GUARANTEED. This is a crap shoot. When I deployed in 2003, the political climate did not favor visiting many ports. Submarines also have special needs that prevent them from visiting some ports where surface ships or non-nuclear ships are free to dock.
In general, I recommend against joining any branch of the military to “see the world.” If you have the resources, check out the Semester at Sea. You will visit more of the world in a few months than you will visit in a decade of military service.
Claim: The pay and benefits are good.
COMPARED TO WHAT? See the monthly basic, food, housing, and submarine duty payments for commissioned officers to determine what the military would pay you. Then visit Payscale, Glassdoor, BLS, O*Net, or a similar site to see what private industry is likely to pay you for your chosen occupation.
My income was guaranteed, and the NUPOC program allowed me to exit college with zero debt and money in the bank. I’m very thankful for that. College debt is a serious problem for many 20- and even 30-somethings these days.
The Post-9/11 GI-Bill is an excellent benefit which I used to complete a Master of Science degree at a private university with no money out of my pocket. However, keep in mind that many large companies offer tuition reimbursement as a benefit. I could have completed multiple graduate degrees on a part time basis during the years I was in the Navy, and I would have gained relevant work experience at the same time. Instead, I became I full time graduate student in my 30s and sacrificed another 1.5 years of income.
Common Ex-Nuke Career Paths
If I had to label one thing recruiters say or imply as the “big lie,” it would be the notion that being a nuke is some kind of career booster or “stepping stone.” Over the years, I’ve looked up numerous shipmates and former Power School classmates (henceforth, “peers”) on sites like LinkedIn and Facebook, and I’ve noted that their careers often follow one of four paths:
- Commercial electricity generation (usually nuclear) or something closely related
- Supervisor in some kind of production facility
- Business development role at a large corporation after completing a MBA degree or entering some kind of veteran-specific rotational training program (like the GE program linked above in my article)
- Something completely different after completing one or more non-MBA graduate degrees
These categories are for people who are not career Navy. Literally all of the senior/career officers with whom I interacted during my years of service (commanding officers, squadron officials, etc.) who I have been able to find online are working as program managers for military contractors.
Note something common to all four paths–not a single one requires military service.
Group 1: Commercial Generation and Related
Nearly half the peers I surveyed fall into this category. This is true more often for my former enlisted peers, but many former officers are working at nuclear generating stations too. Some of my enlisted peers work as technicians at non-nuclear generating stations. I found one (enlisted) who works as an electrical grid operator and another (officer) who sells nuclear fuel. A couple of my training classmates work at INPO, the nuclear industry’s self-regulation/training/evaluation agency.
The Navy is well represented in commercial nuclear, but you can also just get a job working at a nuclear plant directly out of school if that is your prerogative.
Group 2: Production Supervisors
These jobs are on offer through military-to-corporate recruiters, who run hiring conferences that are well attended by current and recently separated junior military officers.
Group 3: Business Development
One of my peers completed a MBA at a prestigious school and got an energy business development role. Another joined a rotational program at a large company and works on the business side of oil and gas exploration. The man I relieved for “shore tour” completed a MBA at a different prestigious school and went to work at a food and beverage conglomerate.
If you see recruiting materials talking about nukes getting non-energy corporate executive jobs because the employer “just knew they could do it,” the real reason is because the service member followed this path. The employer hired the MBA; not the nuke.
Group 4: Completely Different
People in this category generally use their G.I. Bill benefits. One of my peers got a law degree, briefly worked as a lawyer, and then got a M.S. in computer science. Another got a PhD in finance. Yet another got a PhD in astronomy.
I’m in group 4. After years of self-employment, I started looking to work for other people again and discovered that I could only get interviews for group 1 and 2 jobs. After a couple of those, I went back to school full-time, completed a masters in computer science in 2014, and now work as a software engineer.
My original undergraduate majors were computer science and math, but I dropped the former after entering NUPOC in order to graduate a semester early. Therefore, in 2014, I came full circle to where I would have been in 2001 had I just avoided the military. My experience is that I’m dramatically more employable with a M.S. in computer science than I ever was trying to get hired with ex-nuke credentials, and the jobs for which I’m qualified are more interesting to me.
Your recruiters might tell you that the information in this section is purely anecdotal, and they would be correct by definition. However, here in the real world, people who ignore obvious trends like this often do so to their own detriment. Former police officers become security guards; former reporters work for public relations firms. Your current job is highly predictive of your next job. It isn’t rocket science.
Odds and Ends
Military service likely will change your personality. Socially, the military is the ultimate bro culture. It is exactly like a college fraternity, for whatever good or bad you associate with those organizations.
Almost nobody really cares where you went to school. Don’t assume substantial debt for school. If you’re not trying to work on Wall Street or at a top tier consulting or law firm, your in-state public university is probably good enough.
If you go nuke, go NUPOC. It’s a much better deal than ROTC or the Naval Academy.
ROTC staff are undisclosed nuke recruiters. I know this because I explored being an ROTC officer for my shore tour, and the incumbent told me.
Mental health issues, including suicides, and sexual assault against women are common in the military.
Conclusion
Join the nuclear Navy if you want to experience submarine/military service for its own sake. It probably won’t turbocharge your civilian career, and the idea that the military churns out great leaders is tenuous, at best. (Read John Reed’s leadership article!)
Keep in mind that money is only one factor you should consider. Military personnel tend to work very long hours. For much of my time in the Navy, I would have been happier to work half the time for half the money. How much is your life worth?
Also keep in mind that recruiters love to play up the mystique of the Silent Service. I asked my recruiter why he received some of his ribbons, and he informed me that they were for, “going certain places and doing certain things.” He wasn’t being glib–submarine operations are classified. But don’t assume that something is interesting just because it’s classified. My first Top Secret brief was three hours long, and I had to stand up and smack myself in the back of the head repeatedly to stay awake.
I hope you find this helpful. If you have any questions, you’re welcome to post them in the comments, but please first determine if I have already answered your question in the FAQ or in the comments for somebody else.
In conclusion, here’s a satirical video from The Onion that demonstrates exactly what the military is really like. It’s about the Army, but the Navy is the same (minus the combat).
FAQ
My GPA is X.XX, and [these are my life circumstances]. Will I get accepted to NUPOC?
I don’t know. If you think NUPOC is right for you, apply, and don’t worry about it. If you get rejected, you will not have lost anything.
What about the instructor and Naval Reactors pipelines?
I am not the best person to ask because I didn’t experience those paths.
Postscript – An Appeal
If you find this article useful, please share it, and post links to it on relevant forums. That will help it to remain among the top internet search engine results for “NUPOC” in spite of all the Navy’s “sponsored links” buying their way to the head of the line.
Please report broken links.
Thanks Dave for very valuable firsthand experience. My younger son, a mechanical engineering major in his sophomore year at a top engineering (among the top few in the U.S.) school has been contacted by a recruiter for NUPOC program. He is terribly excited, especially with the money. He is on a full ride, so he does not need money to finish his degree. I must admit, I was excited to, cautiously though. My older son thinks that since the younger one is already in a top school on a full ride, NUPOC would not really buy him much. In fact, in the long run, he might lag behind his peers in the civilian world when he gets of the Navy. I am beginning to lean that way too. I tend to think that for someone in his position, who has already been through a tough competition because of his hard work and discipline, NUPOC won’t teach him much beyond what he already has.
Is there anything in NUPOC for a bright student studying in a premier engineering school, who doesn’t really need the money? For someone used to living very frugally, money is a big lure right now. Any comments would be appreciated.
I agree with your older son. NUPOC will pay your younger son some money up front, but he would likely earn much less during his first few years in the Navy than he would earn in the civilian world given his credentials.
From what you’ve written, I do not get the impression that your younger son is under any real time pressure. Recruiters will want him to sign a contract while he is still a student, and I strongly advise against doing that. I think he would be better informed if he pursued internships now and went through the usual civilian job search process his senior year. If he gets offers, he would then have a basis to compare what the Navy is offering. If he decides that the Navy is for him, he would still be free to join at any time, and he could use the civilian offers as leverage to negotiate a signing bonus comparable to what he would have gotten by committing to NUPOC.
Almost all of these posts have been submarine oriented. I personally was a surface nuclear officer on an aircraft carrier; and my experience seems to have been quite different — and more positive — than officers on submarines.
The most important difference is that I can honestly say that in my nearly three years on a nuclear aircraft carrier I never once felt overworked. Never. This is not to say that I did not have some very long days. On duty days, in our home port, I usually got no more than 4 hours of sleep. But duty days were rarely more than twice a week and typically closer to 3 days per fortnight. They were long days but not intense days. It was definitely bearable.
While it is true that being a Navy officer (or military officer in general) will not make you a leader, it will make you a manager. And there are tons of talented hard working college grads who will not become a manager within their first two years on the job. In the Navy you will; almost guaranteed (nuke or not). This is definitely not time wasted. I have drawn on that experience every day on all of my jobs since then.
I have worked for three major corporations since leaving the Navy: Chrysler, Hertz, and FedEx. Their managers are no more enlightened than military officers in general, and are considerably less competent than the nuclear officers that I worked with. In fact, the best co-workers that I have ever had were nuclear trained officers and enlisted. Head and shoulders above civilians who mostly tend toward sloppiness and corner cutting (at all levels). If you think Navy recruiters lie to you, just pay attention to the drivel and propaganda that the corporate world puts out. The Navy is no worse in this department.
Personally, I liked going to sea. In this I was somewhat unusual compared to my peers. I liked being on the ocean, and in fact, the work load was less than at our home port because port time was used for major maintenance and repairs which require significant coordination and serious supervision. At sea, on the other hand, most equipment was up and running smoothly. I actually got more sleep at sea than I did in port. I liked returning to port too, though. I liked going on deployment, but also liked returning to the states. I liked the rhythm of leaving home and returning. Then again, I love baseball which has the same rhythm.
Yes, it is true, that “seeing the world” with the Navy is overstated. My experience was that port calls went by extremely quickly. Most were only 3 or 4 days, and I usually had duty requiring me to stay on the ship for at least one of those days. Visiting Japan was basically 2 quick days. Enjoyable and informative, but quick. Unlike some sailors, I did not spend this time drinking.
I left the Navy after one tour; mostly because I did not want to go to the trouble of passing the engineering exam. I didn’t find nuclear power interesting enough to spend months prepping for the exam. So I got out. Yet I have nothing but fond memories, and still miss my co-workers who were uniformly competent (unlike my civilian colleagues). The Navy also had a sense of camaraderie and team work that has been nearly totally lacking at my civilian jobs. All in all, it was a very positive experience.
For what it is worth, I was commissioned via NROTC at Oregon State University.
Thank you for sharing your experience, Warren. I think there are a variety of experiences to be had in corporate America. It took me years to discover that there are places I can work where the management is competent, I enjoy my work and coworkers, and, perhaps most important to me after military service, we actually produce something. Getting to this point required me to build credentials and skills completely separate from anything I did in the military.
Thanks for writing this. Navy life is hard. I read this to understand my nuc (O4) husband’s day to day frustrations.
Thanks again, you helped make much sense!
-MMK
PS But never give up on seeing the world, and/or being part of it:-)
I like a lot of the things you pointed out in your blog. I was a physics major from Purdue university. I originally wanted to be a pilot in the navy but I didn’t get picked up with ROTC. It was more important to me at the time to pay for college and I still wanted to be in the navy so I looked into NUPOC. Went through the whole process to become a SWO(N). Currently doing my first tour on a surface ship so I do not have the experience on the nuclear side of the house yet but I have gained quite a bit of valuable insight just from the SWO side in general. There is no lie that the leadership experience really is no where to be found. The captain puts out what he wants then it goes to my department head and then finally down to me where I put it out to my guys. And it follows the same chain back up and there is always a lot of technical information that gets lost in translation. God forbid there is some sort of casualty cause you’ll get the captain, DH, and everyone else under the sun calling every 2 min for an update and never actually giving you a chance to solve the problem. You are a manager plain and simple. Your job is to make sure that other people do their job and it’s like that the entire way up. Also from a small boy ddg perspective there are many people up the chain who know very little about the department they are supposed to be in charge of and who I am quite certain would not actually do well in the civilian sector. My DH in particular writes memos every day for our tactical watch standers and our captain and cannot even spell the simplest things correctly. You will get to work with some amazing people and there will be experiences that take your breath away but they are few and far between. Generally most of the time you will be working for someone completely incompetent at their job and they will be able to take credit for your success and the success of the division you are in charge of. Patriotism will only take you so far in this job. At some point you will take a really good look at why you joined and if you want to continue to do this kind of work. 95% of the people I have talked with that decided to stay in did not do so out of loyalty to the US but because it was easier for them to stay in than get out and they just want to make it till that 20 year retirement mark. I have been commissioned for a year so I still have 4 more bleeding years till I can walk away with my seabag for the last time. I will never regret my decision to join. Mostly because I came out way ahead of my peers out of college with no debt and a good chunk of change in the bank but I would not wish this lifestyle on anyone. Fair winds and following seas to all of you.
Thanks for sharing, shipmate. I wish I had something inspirational or reassuring to share with you. I once removed a split infinitive in a junior sailor’s evaluation (written by my chief), routed it to my department head, and had it returned to me to reinsert the original text because, “It sounds odd that way.” Odd or not, it didn’t really matter in the first place, and the department head could easily have reverted the wording himself. That is the kind of crap around which my daily existence revolved back then. But it paid for school . . . .
Sorry for asking – is the non-nuke SWO(N)’s tenure on DDG quite a fair career step for newly-trained nuke officer? I thought all fresh SWO(N)s are going to have their initial Div tour on CVNs in Reactor Dept or at least Engineering one. Otherwise, that highly demanding and costly nuclear training will become quite cold and irrelevant after non-nuke Div tour on a small surface ship…
Unless things have changed, U.S. surface nuke candidates first serve a year or two on a non-nuclear surface ship, such as a destroyer, to gain experience with ship handling, etc. Then they go through nuclear training, and then they go to an aircraft carrier.
Thank you Dave, I have the follow as a quote:
“SWO nukes spend a surprisingly little amount of time as nukes. I have rounded numbers for ease of math and put in ranks for OP)
enter USN
2 years as SWO on non nuke ship (Ensign)
1 year various nuke schools (LTJG)
2 years on CVN (LTJG/LT)
2 years random shore duty, most are non nuke, some get nuke training teams (LT)
1 year department head on non nuke ship (LT)
2 year tour as principal assistant on CVN (LCDR)
2 year shore duty most non nuke, some are nuke related (LCDR)
add in a few years here for other non nuke items.
3 years as XO/CO non nuke ship (CDR)
2 years as Reactor Officer (CDR/CAPT) (arrive as RO about 18 year point)
basically out of 20 years they will spend about 7-10 years on an operational reactor, a sub officer will spend much more time operating reactors.”
Eventually, imagine such nuke surface candidate who starts from FFG, LCS or even MCM instead of DDG, and consider that s/he (minus MCM for women) quite could be qualified as OOD at the end of that 2 initial years. Then, after training and trapping aboard of “bird farm”, his/her standard watch will be nuke EOOW almost for sure, with some nuke CWO3-5s as well as Lt/LtCdrs in row, and with OOD Olympus far above that. Looks like demotivator, at least from URL officer’s point – general bleeding and suffocating of surface warfare guy/gal’s life seems to be the far cry from the initial NUPOC perspective. Being real nuke just during the half of entire career at best – is it worth such training efforts? It’s better to choose the submarines from the scratch…
Hey your tour is almost up! I feel you though, wouldn’t wish it on anyone. I still have til October 2021, not horrible.
Hi Dave, I’m a 22 year old college student in Computer Science. I’ve been in talks with Navy officer recruiters because the Nuclear Officer program is something I’ve wanted to do for a while. However, they constantly tell me that I have little shot at it because I’m not an engineering major. They say my best bet is to graduate and submit an OCS Nuke packet, and maybe I’ll get selected. I also don’t attend a fantastic school (directional state school), so that might play a factor as well. I want to pursue a career in this field very much, and therefore I’ve considered enlisting if I don’t get selected and then pursuing further engineering education later in an attempt to become a submarine officer. Are the recruiters being dishonest in an attempt to get me to go enlisted? I’ve got a 3.6+ GPA, and I’m a senior in college. Thanks for maintaining this blog.
-Ethan
Hi, Ethan. My degrees are in math and computer science, and plenty of non-engineers went through the program with me. That said, the recruiting standards vary over time according to the Navy’s manpower requirements. I think they would submit you as a candidate if they thought you would be selected because they have quotas. If they won’t submit you, putting in an OCS package makes sense if your goal is to be a Navy officer. From what you’ve written, I don’t get the impression that anybody is trying to get you to enlist, and I do not recommend you do so with a computer science degree. In fact, I would recommend that you work as a software engineer for at least a year and see if you still want to join the military. I don’t remember the exact cutoff age for OCS, but you have plenty of time.
From what the recruiters tell me and what I’ve read, 27 is the age cutoff for the NUPOC program specifically. 35 is the age cutoff for everybody, I think. And sorry, I guess I wasn’t really clear in my first post. The recruiters I’ve talked to have told me that going in enlisted and having prior service is a good way to get a boost for an OCS packet if you want to eventually become an officer. So their suggestions have been to join enlisted and while I’m in DEP, submit an OCS package. If I don’t make it, I go enlisted for a couple of years and try again periodically. To be honest I’m not sure if I want it badly enough to do that. I would probably prefer to just look at the officer programs and if that doesn’t work out, I’ll just work as a software engineer, as you suggested. Thanks for your reply.
Don’t enlist unless you are prepared to serve the 6 year minimum as an enlisted sailor. As a veteran E6 MM nuke it is very hard to convert over to Officer from the Nuke pipeline. I’d like to think its not the case but I believe if they would rather keep high educated enlisted people and use the Officer Carrot as a way to get high educated officers, taking a high skilled enlisted to officer is less of a gain for the navy. That’s my Opinion.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
If you are qualified for an Officer Program you should *NOT* enlist. There are some good opportunities on the enlisted side, and I know a lot of folks who’ve enjoyed their time, but the pay, benefits, respect, and exit opportunities are not the same.
Hi Dave,
I appreciate your extremely informative article on the NUPOC program. That said, I’m more interested in the NR pipeline, in which (I’m told by the recruiter) you live a civilian-style life in DC while you get to *actually* engineer and design, as opposed to being trained as an “operator,” as you mention in your post.
I’m having a really tough time finding good resources online about the NR pipeline that aren’t written by the Navy itself, and I’m wondering if you could offer any information/advice. Specifically, do you know if you actually do get to engineer stuff in the real sense in the NR pipeline? Also, are civilian prospects upon completion of your commission better/worse off in the NR pipeline?
Thank so much for taking the time– I’m looking forward to your reply.
Hi, Jesse. You would wear civilian clothes at NR, but that’s about it. You would still be in the military. NR is the Navy’s internal regulatory agency, and it does for the Navy what the NRC does for commercial nuclear. NR workers audit and inspect nuclear ships; they don’t just hang out in D.C.
If you want to be a design engineer, I recommend avoiding the military. I don’t have any primary information about your civilian prospects after the Navy, should you go NR, but my educated guess is that you would be, at the absolute best, no better off than had you gone to work for a reactor manufacturer directly out of college. Join the military if you want to serve in the military for its own sake.
I actually had a fellow sailor join NR from the enlisted side of the house.. Like Dave says its really just a group or auditors and fact finders. When NR gets involved there paperwork as well 🙂
Hello Dave,
I have read your article and read comments and responses for probably the last hour. This isn’t the first comment you’ve received from a college student and I hope I’m not beating a dead horse with these questions. I’m starting my senior year in college as a Mech E student although I’m expecting it will take me an additional year to finish my degree due to classes that must be taken one after another that I can’t get around. Will this be a problem? I had read something about having to get a waiver if it takes you longer than 4 years to get a 4 year degree. Also, I have a serious girlfriend that I plan on marrying and starting a life with in due time. I’m not sure how often I would get to see her if I did make it into the program and go through the whole training phase after graduation. Would my experience be different if we were married as opposed to just dating? If we were married could she be moved out to where I’m at during trainings? Is there some sort of family housing?
I’ve always wanted to be in the military and grew up in a military family. My father was an OSI agent for the Air Force and did his 20 years before retiring and doing the same thing basically but as a civilian till he died. Being in the military was always something I wanted to do but was advised to go to college and get a degree (I somewhat like Mechanical Engineering) and then figure out if I wanted to go the officer route or take a civilian engineering job. His passing last year of cancer has renewed my drive to serve my country and follow in his footsteps (I’m sure this probably sounds naive and cliche). Before I heard about the NUPOC program I had never considered Navy although I never had any reasons not to like it. I looked at trying to go to OCS after graduation and become an Army Officer but from what I’ve read and heard my engineering degree would be useless and there wouldn’t be too many technical jobs up my alley that would utilize my engineering skills and relate to a career after the military. From what you write, however, even in the nuclear program it seems that it won’t relate to much after the military unless I want to work at a reactor plant (a job that’s not all that unappealing actually). I like the idea of being able to save some money now and have them pay for these last couple years of school. I’d like to not have to worry about landing an internship at an engineering firm or working some crappy retail job till I graduate and pray I can get an engineering job afterwards. These aren’t my only reasons for wanting to apply as I’ve always wanted to be in the military but I had never considered the Navy until now and it seems pretty foreign to me. I don’t want to jump down this path without really thinking it over but it sounds like a great opportunity and the Navy seems to be the only one that has programs like this. What do you think?
Thanks for your time,
Tyler
Hi, Tyler. I’m not an authority on what does or does not require a waiver these days, but being an undergraduate for more than 4 years will not be a roadblock. You can see your girlfriend or spouse daily while you’re in training; refer to previous comments about how being on a ship will change that. Married sailors receive additional pay and are eligible to live in base housing. Married or not, you have the option to rent or buy your primary residence off base, and you can live with whomever you want.
If you want to serve in the military for its own sake, my thought is that the nuclear Navy is as good as any other military occupation.
A lot of the things you said about how the Navy sucks are dead on, but I still have an overall less negative impression than you. There was definitely some disillusion and weariness with being a JO, but for me it also ends up being a huge touchstone of my experience. Have a Ph.D. and worked at McKinsey. Have bounced around different professions. But I’m still a sub officer at heart.
I did see a lot of my fellow JOs get out with me and often the better ones. But I also think I had more interest in the military than you ever did. (Went to Naval Academy, family full of USN, etc.) So I would just realize that not everyone will have all of your perspective. You were probably to the left of the interest bell curve in the population (not representative). Things you say about eschewing boat friends and sticking to civilians–are not the norm.
For me nuke school and service on a sub gave me a practical exposure to engineering that has served me well in various mechanical industries (pharma, chem, oil, mfg). Even though the roles were not so much technical, just having that comfort factor of what a steam trap is (versus some English major) has been helpful. I never had a lot of shop time in HS, didn’t build cars or work on a farm. So seeing the oil and gears and such on a boat was good for me.
I actually think the way nuke (and even the Academy non engineer core curriculum) simplifies things is also helpful. Somehow it is easier, better to learn things with more of a diagrammatic insight, with algebra first and calculus when necessary. (Saw a lot of mechEs struggle while I absorbed the fluids and HT like a fish.) I just think you get more “physical insight”. I actually went and got a job doing chemical process piping design for a couple years after the boat and I had no problem keeping up with kids that had mechEs–really much better than them, I kid you not. (Although their drafting skills were better–really regret not taking mechanical drafting and typing when my HS counselor told me to!).
I did reserves for a few years after leaving the boat too and the extra money in grad school was great. Didn’t stay to 20 (probably should have). Was more interested in the immediate cash as well as still “belonging” than in the 20 year stuff. Reserves can be a drag with weekends in an office, but I worked the system to get some cool trips and was part of some joint task force exercises and one real JTF. Even did a trip on a submarine (which they all thought was some big hairy thing as reservists are kept far from operating subs.) I didn’t operate anything but I was part of a squadron eval and had no problem doing a decent job. Felt bad for the JOs as they had a screamer CO. And when I saw them sucking rubber during a drill, thought not that much had changed…
Yeah, surfaced OOD is the best. My navigator got a bug up his butt and thought I didn’t learn enough to get my fish (CO disagreed). He was the SWO and decided to compensate for what he thought was my weak operations by making me do all surfacings, port entries, underways, etc. Like having steak and champagne shoved down your throat!
P.s. Fast attack tough. And all real submarines are named after fish. 🙂
—————-
So do you have to do nuke subs? No. But it can be a cool experience even amongst the sucking and definitely afterwards. Even though it is less chi-chi, I usually get more interest on my resume for the sub time than McK. Especially in flyover country.
Thank you for sharing! I urge anybody who reads my article to get multiple opinions (not counting recruiters), and I was definitely to the left of the interest bell curve. Like many people, I joined primarily to pay for school. In that regard, NUPOC performed as advertised. I still think my ship is an amazing piece of technology.
Nobody asks me the crazy Russian, but… Once I was crossdecked with the Akula-class crew (I’m surface warfare officer, Russian Navy) on their boat for liaison during fleet exercises and there was my classmate as a Communication Dept Head there. Sipping a tea in his stateroom (or cabin – two-bunked space which he shared with boat’s Intel Officer) I asked him for what the hell they tormented our brains with differ/integral calculus for three years (plebe, sophomore and the next year too) in Naval College if nobody aboard of this state-of-the-art boat uses something different from a keypad of a standard calculator? He laughed and called for a grim warrant officer who was in charge of the horizontal planes: “This is the only man in the whole crew who knows what the interals and math divergence really are as he’s using them to find the locations of the boat’s centers of gravity and buoyancy, either. Not an officer really, without any degree, without nuke training. All the others – nukes, weapons officers, nav, eng, XO and CO quite can have just a high school certificate, nothing more – we are no more than monkeys who’re pushing buttons. But maybe you know that it is the right hemisphere in our heads which is in charge of the integral calculus, not the left one which is driving the simple algebra. And this right one is in charge for the creativeness and intuition also. To train this hemisphere by a high math is, thus, to train your intuition. Nobody can cope with the boat’s service without it, so we are pushing the buttons properly even when the overall situation went wrong along with all these f***ing manuals.” Maybe this is the main outcome of the nuke training or any other course that deeply uses the math and physics, no matter what the field is, by the way.
Hi Dave,
This blog is by far the most informative piece out there on the NUPOC program and I appreciate everyone’s input/thoughts. A bit about me: I’m currently a biophysics PhD student (still have ~3 more years). I’ve always wanted to serve in the military because (1) no one in my family has ever served so I wanted to take the first step and start a tradition and (2) I just feel obligated to serve as an American citizen. When I was an undergrad, I was really set on going for the NUPOC program but my parents heavily discouraged me. They wanted me to just continue on my academic path as a civilian until I was more mature. Because they’ve done so much for me, I honored their wishes. Now, I’m 24, stuck on an academic track until I’m 27 or so. Career-wise, do you think it’s too late to join NUPOC by the time I graduate? Is it even a sensible choice to consider the military after getting a PhD? What I’m afraid of is that if I join the NUPOC or go for an officer position in some other field, my credentials as a PhD graduate will be meaningless due to my decision to put off starting my career for 5-6 years of military service. What would be your advice for a PhD student still considering a future military service as a Navy nuke or some other officer position?
Thanks!
I’m glad you find this information useful, Timothy.
You are free to join NUPOC at 27, but it would be a complete waste of your PhD. The end result, ~6 years down the road, would be you competing for jobs against similarly experienced people ~6 years younger than you or people your age who already have significant industry experience. Nothing you will do in the nuclear Navy is relevant to any kind of research position. Your real job, as a nuke officer, would be to memorize and regurgitate technical manuals, to push paperwork, and to tell other people to perform routine tasks. My article is overdue for another revision. I’m 37 now, I completed a masters degree, I made a career change, and I completely agree with John Reed’s assessment that military time is “lost time” unless you want to work in a very narrow range of job titles after the military. None of the job titles are appropriate for somebody with a PhD, and none of them strictly require military service in the first place.
I suggest that paying 34%+ of one’s income in taxes to Uncle Sam–an experience you are likely to know intimately once you begin your civilian career–more than fulfills any obligation that any United States citizen has to our nation. I can’t speak for other veterans, but I certainly don’t look down on people who don’t join the military.
If you value your PhD. and the opportunity to do research, DO NOT join the nuclear Navy. As has already been mentioned, your PhD. will not be used even in the slightest in the nuclear Navy; it would be a complete waste of time. A degree is just a check in the box as far as the Navy is concerned; just means that you are good enough at rapidly memorizing copious amounts of technical data and regurgitating it on que (as indicated in the article above). If you really want to join the nuclear Navy, I advise you to just quit your PhD. and join. Less of your time would be wasted overall. TRUST ME! I obtained my PhD in physics. then joined. Wish I had not and continued with postdoc. True I would have had less money, but at least I would be able to do something interesting and not excruciatingly monotonous/tedious. Also, your PhD will lose all its value by the time you leave the Navy after approx. 5.5 years. Think about it. All the time you are in the Navy you will not be doing any research, you will not be publishing. When you get out you will be at square one in the scientific community. My advice is don’t join unless you really can’t find a job and you are ABSOLUTELY DESPERATE. Finally take my situation. I used to do scientific research at the postdoc level prior to joining. Then I got the bug to serve my country. Now I mindlessly (compared to my previous research) follow reactor plant procedure over and over and over again. I have to spend copious amounts of time memorizing data and info from reactor plant manuals again and again and again. You would better serve your country by using your PhD. to keep the U.S. on the cutting edge of scientific discovery and ahead of other countries. In the Navy you just operate technology. Scientists and Engineers, on the other hand, generate technology. For Heaven’s sake DO NOT JOIN if you are going to continue and get your PhD.
Hi Dave,
Thank you for all of the information you’ve provided, I appreciate it immensely, It’s refreshing to have a great reference blog, and all of the info is transparent. I recently stumbled upon the NUPOC program. I’m 27, I will graduate with a BS in a Behavioral Science field, and I have an AA in Math & Science plus an AA in Liberal Arts from a JUCO. My main question now is: will the interview for the NUPOC program be before or after signing/after OCS/after MEPS?
I interviewed with the admiral in Washington after MEPS and after a wine-and-dine trip to San Diego to tour a submarine. If you pass the interview, they will immediately take you back to a hotel and put a contract in front of you.
Ok, thanks a lot for the info once again. I’ll be doing my research for the next couple months before either I start talking with a recruiter or go in another direction. My commitment would be for 6 years active/ 2 years inactive and I’d hypothetically (considering I made it through successfully) have enough experience to work at a power plant after? I have only a couple months left before I graduate.
My commitment was for 8 years, at least 5 of which had to be active, and my time in NUPOC as an undergraduate in “active duty for training” status counted towards the 8 years. Yes, you could work at a generating station afterwards. You could also work at a generating station without ever serving in the Navy.
Dave,
Reading the book “Making A Submarine Officer” by Alex C. Fleming, who was in general repeating your about-five-years Navy career via NUPOC (from interview with 4-stars NavReactors boss etc), as it can be supposed from the end notes, I found no mentions about OCS, and it quite can be considered that there is the path within NUPOC to achieve the direct commission as an ensign after college graduation and skip those 90 days of “marching & pushups”. Or was it NROTC in Penn U? Generally, the cost of NROTC alumni for the federal government is about 25% of the cost of Annapolis Canoe U grad. Given generally the same SAT rate claims to the NUPOC students, one may suggest that NUPOC cost is the same or less. Why the hell your government are still maintaining the Service Academies? Wasted money from the common sense’s standpoint…
Regards, Maxs?
Hi Dave,
I was wondering if you knew if it was possible to dropout of the NUPOC after already accepting it but not yet having graduated from college/ what the repercussions would be.
Hi, Sally. If memory serves, disenrolling from a delayed commissioning program, such as NUPOC, is possible at anytime before showing up to OCS, but I’m not an authority on this matter. The details you want should be buried in the small print of the enlistment contract you/whoever signed. At a minimum, I expect the candidate to have to refund all money received from the Navy.
Hello Dave,
Just my two cents to discussion. I’m Russian and used to be the naval officer, the Naval College grad. The Russian naval education system is built along the specialties rather than communities, except for the naval aviation (that’s a long story, for short the two “old” naval communities, namely submarine and surface ones, aren’t ready to count the naval aviation as the part of the Navy at all, naming it as just a naval branch of Air Force). But for those oldies it is much easier to interchange the community than specialty. If you are educated as the navigation officer, you will never be sent to the ordnance or marine engineering duty while can change the sub for the surface ship and even back after awhile, and vice versa. And if you are nuke, you will never serve on any other appointment beyond the reactor control room of the boat or ship. For the nuclear submarines, no matter SSN, SSGN and SSBN types, there is the special faculty in one engineering naval college which is educating the officers purely for running the nuke plants. Only four surface ships in Russian Navy have the nuclear plants (CGNs of Kirov class, just one of them is operational) and the nuke officers for them are educated and trained there, too. Amazingly, the initial entry point in the boat’s company for the fresh nuke lieutenant – the direction operator of the reactor – is, in most cases, the last one simultaneously: only one of four such officers of the crew will be appointed to the post of divisional officer and it is the dead end, as the department head named CHENG of the Russian sub is never the nuke, he is either turbine specialist or broad electrical engineer from the scratch.
To some degree, the Brits in Royal Navy are sticking with the same approach: the RN boat’s CHENG (LtCdr, RN), being so-called Marine Engineer (with mostly the math degree), is the nuke but he will never be the XO let alone CO of the boat (by the way, the Warfare subcommunity of RN Submarine Service, which is where the XO and CO of British boats are stemming from, has no claim for these officers to have a degree, the high school sertificate – GCSE – is enough).
What is meaning for the post-navy career in GB is not clear for me, but here in Russia it means nothing. Naval nuke personnell here is almost never employed by the civilian nuclear industry as they have their own educational installations and they are very reluctant to hire the former naval nukes (officers and enlisted as well) due to the interesting thing: civilian nuclear people here is considering the military guys as very stupid and blunt, as they pay, in civilians’ opinion, very little attention to all happening beyond the operational procedures, while the “true” nuclear pro should have an intuition, which is possible only if the engineer did pass at least a decade at one definite plant.
Generally, there is no respect in Russian market (broadly speaking) to the military experience of the retired officers, let alone enlisted people. Neither in “leadership”, nor in the professional skills. The best nuke officer I’ve ever known, who was the reactor manager on the cruiser Kirov (leadship of the class), after retirement had established a logistics company running the trucks all around the CIS, which has nothing common with the nuclear industry or science.
Hope it all came along the mark as it mostly confirms your opinions from the other side of the globe. Don’t join the military except for the money or strict personal desire which is independent from the others, especially the recruiters.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Max! On U.S. submarines, there is also a department head known as the “Engineer Officer” or just “Eng.” Although I don’t have numbers to cite, the word on the deck plates when I was in was that more U.S. Eng’s went on to be XOs and COs than other department heads. Who knows if that’s even true? I had two COs during my time on a ship. One was a served Eng; the other, a former Weapons Officer (“Weps”).
Dave,
It is very, very appreciated theme in any national navy – what to do after service and how to nullify the navy’s harm to personality traits and career ways, so I am very thankful to you. Well done!
What about the career difference between the USN and Russian Navy silent services, it mirrors in my opinion the deeper difference in military cultures: attitude to enlisted personnell. In Russian military tradition the enlisted man is nothing more than the air and food consumer. On Akula-class SSNs (Project 971) which are famous to me, of the crew of 103 the commissioned officers counted 57 – more than half. In my department, the communications one, in my time there were three officers and three midshipmen (not a trainee status but the enlisted rank enstead, somewhere between the CPO and WO in Western navies), and no one below. Frankly, I don’t even remember how much enlisted men were on board, something about 20 or so, divided between EngDept (mostly damage control division) and Supply Service (cooks and yeomen). Of course there were no enlisted men in reactor control room. So any job on Russian subs that demands the level of knowledge and responsibility just slightlly higher than “to turn this one wheel left or right on my orders and don’t even touch every single other thing” is usually done by the junior officers, and managed/supervised by the seniors. Eventually this adds to the officer’s status the lower price than the US military tradition does, where, AFAIK, the officer is managing the jobs that enlisted are doing.
So in our Navy the engineering officer usually receives his naval designator at the moment of commission and this moment is almost inevitably nailed him for good to this designator and, simultaneously, the definite way of life and the career: if you didn’t graduate that noted nuke faculty you’ll never be the nuke, and the nuke will never be the CO, XO, Weaps (Department Three in our parlance), Nav/Ops (Dept One and Seven, accordingly) and so on. The only way for nuke to make something similar to command career is to flee to the Deputy CO for the personnel management (former Communist Party representative on board), but it effectively kills his while little but yet existing after-service opportunity to be emloyed as an engineer in civilian world.
Some details to previous posts: those midshipmen while the senior enlisted personnell and counting at least one third of the nuclear sub’s crew, could have been the nukes early on, in the crews of the old boats. On rough equivallent to USN George Washington-class SSBNs, the Soviet SSBNs of Project 667A or Yankee-class in NATO (being jockingly nicknamed here in Russia as “Ivan Washington-class” due to the close similarity – evidently one nation has stolen the blueprints from the other, let me be quiet about who was thief and who lost that, it is quite evident), there were the nuke junior enlisted conscripts. One of them, PO2c Serge Perminin, is the sole guy still on patrol with K-219 in Caribbean Sea since 1986: he volunteered to shut the portside reactor down manually – there was no choice due to the damages from the fire – and he stayed with the eventually drowned boat. As far as I know, of several thousands of conscripts passed that kind of service, very few, if any, were connected to the nuclear engineering in their civilian life. On the early stage of the Soviet submarine reactors development, there were many of civilian nuclear physicists (including future Nobel Prize winner Zhores Alferov) directed to the boats and this was usual for them to spent several months at sea as the civilian contractors (and it still happenes sometimes). That is why the old-generation Russian physicists, while very intellectual and intelligent persons, have a long-term habit to use the harsh and dirty Russian words as masterfully as it can be, as there is the only language the Russian Navy understands;-)
So I finished and going on to watch the discussion with interest, thanks again.
Hey Dave,
Thank you for your service and providing this insightful blog. I sometimes like to search around to see how other nukes fared in their career endeavors post navy and that is how I stumbled on to your blog.
A little background about myself: I was an enlisted nuke (EM), served for 8 and half years from 2003-2012. I grew up poor so I looked at the Navy as way to gain work experience and money for school as to improve my career outlook. I was stationed on a fast attack Los Angeles class submarine following nuke school and completed a 3-year shore tour as an instructor at the NY prototype. While I was in, I completed the BS in Nuclear Engineering Technology from Excelsior and qualified EWS.
Over the past 3 years, I have been trying to figure out what is next for my career. Post- Navy, I switched towards electric grid operations as the nuclear Navy left a bad taste in my mouth about continuing in the commercial nuke world. I worked in transmission operations for about 2 years operating 345 kV lines (control room ops) and now work as generation controller. The generation controller work is a little more interesting because it is more dynamic then the transmission side and has a role in the wholesale electricity market.
I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis of the Navy nuclear program although I experienced it from a different perspective. Looking back, I do not believe I would do it again knowing what I know now and the different avenues I could have taken to be successful. While I earn 6 figures, I feel trapped in the pattern you described about typical post nuclear Navy careers where the jobs are monotonous, unfulfilling , and as an added bonus of being enlisted I get to work tech jobs complete with rotating shift work and O/T to make 6 figures. Not bad but I worry about quality of life as I get older.
Going forward I am investigating ways to expand my career options into the wholesale electricity market portion of my current job. It seems at this point in my career (I am pushing mid 30s) I need to leverage my work experience as much as possible. Since I have my GI Bill available, I am looking into bridging into the financial risk management aspects of the market by earning an ERP certification from GARP and an MS in Finance.
This leads to some questions I have that I would appreciate your personal insight on:
I recall in one of your comments, you stated you do not remain friends with many of the folks from your navy time. Outside of personal indifferences, I was wondering if it is difference in mindset, in terms of military mindset not coinciding with your newfound outlook on life and career?
How important is the reputation of the grad school one chooses to retool one’s career? I would like to go somewhere reputable but my options are limited with a rotating shift schedule so I was hoping your insight on this question will assist in finding a good balance.
What is your opinion of the schools that cater specifically towards military?
Since you are in finance I was wondering if based on my background and educational pursuits do I have an adequate chance to break into energy marketing/trading firms? Is there anything you would recommend I do to improve my chances?
Thank you for taking the time to read my inquiry and look forward to your response.
Thanks for sharing your experience! One of my former EM shipmates currently works as a grid operator. I suspect that your experience is a well worn path.
“Personal indifference” might be the best way of describing my dominant feeling about maintaining contact. My current views, rather than being newfound, are primarily a maturation of views I held when I entered the Navy. Back then, I tried to spend as much time as possible with civilians to stay grounded, and I didn’t hang out with people from the boat outside of work. I don’t think I would have much to say to former Navy coworkers now, although I hope they are all succeeding in whatever way is meaningful to each of them.
I don’t know anything about the ERP, but I’ve considered getting a M.S. in finance. I asked the “Senior Vice President (SVP) of Stock Selection Research” at my present place of work for his advice, and he said that the prestige of the school is very important for that degree. (He has a PhD from MIT.) If you want to work in the epicenters of finance, you will have to compete with graduates from elite universities. On the other hand, if you know you want to live in a less competitive location, I would just figure out who hires people in that area and ask them from what schools they recruit. A recent commenter mentioned that he is pursuing a finance degree online from Duke while on shore tour. That sounds worth checking out. I asked the SVP specifically about Duke, and he said Duke’s Fuqua School has national level recruiting.
In general, I recommend to people that they identify what they want to do for money and where they want to live and work backwards as I describe above. This is the advice I wish I could give to 20 years old me! I decided that I am not willing to incur debt to obtain graduate degrees–that’s how I ended up indentured to the Navy–but maybe that makes sense for you. Within your constraints, it can’t hurt to attend the most prestigious school possible. In addition to finance, I’m told that a MBA degree’s value is utterly dependent on the prestige of the school because, “It’s all about who you meet.”
I don’t have a strong absolute opinion about military friendly schools, but I wonder about the opportunity cost of using benefits on one of those schools. I completed my M.S. in three semesters as a full-time student, and the G.I. Bill, along with “Yellow Ribbon” matching and a scholarship, fully covered my tuition and costs of living at a private school in an extremely expensive city. I prioritized finishing quickly, so being a full-time student made the most sense.
I got into quantitative asset management as a software developer rather than as an analyst, and I’m not involved with commodities trading. In general, I have found the cliche about “who you know” to be right on the money. I got interviewed for my current gig because a guy at my gym heard me say that I had just finished graduate school and was looking for a developer position. He hand delivered my resume to the right people. I’m in consideration for another opportunity now because I mentioned to a guy I know from a meetup group that I’m looking. Are there traders at your present employer with whom you can speak?
Hi, my daughter is a senior in high school. She has a 4. plus GPA, has 33 AP credits upon graduation, 2nd place as of junior year, and has a 97 ASVAB score. She always dream to be in the navy since 5th grade. I wanted her to finish a 4-year degree first, then, join the navy but a recruiter is encouraging her to be in the nuclear program. My daughter is telling me that the nuclear program will pay her while she’s learning. She can go to college and the navy will pay for her education. She can be an officer once she graduates in college. I don’t know if this is true to believe, she’s only 16 the reason why the recruiter cannot let her sign the contract. Are all these information true?
Is she considering enlisting after high school with the intention of going to college later, or is she considering a commissioning (officer) pipeline, such as NROTC or NUPOC?
she’s considering a commissioning officer thru NROTC but the recruiter told her to go Nuclear program (I’m guessing that’s NUPOC). If she gets accepted to NROTC, she can leave NUPOC.
Being an officer and being in the nuclear program are independent decisions, and being in the nuclear program does not obligate her to receive her commission through any particular pipeline. Any commissioning route available to her now–generally the Naval Academy, NROTC, or NUPOC–will pay for her school. If she decides that she wants to go the nuclear path, I recommend NUPOC rather than the other options. She would be a normal college kid, would get paid a salary, and would accrue time-in-service that would result in her pay increasing sooner after receiving her commission.
When I joined NUPOC, candidates had to be at least 2 years through college. I don’t think that’s changed, so I’m not sure why the recruiters are telling her about it now. I suspect that they are actually trying to convince her to enlist, which is not at all in your daughter’s interest according to what you’ve written.
Dave, first off, my youngest son is a recent HS grad and has been accepted into the Nuclear program with a goal to be assigned to a carrier.
Even before reading this, I tried to convince him to start at community college and then transfer to a 4 year school. He is a good kid and smart enough to do anything he sets his mind to and right now, he is hell-bent on joining the Navy. And, being he is of age, the decision is out of my control.
So this is the way I, as his parent, am dealing with this: He will receive the discipline and order he needs, he’ll learn to say ‘yes sir’, (even for a short time), learn to make his bed, and maybe even appreciate his mama. (I know this much, as my middle son is in the USN). My hopes are that he will gain some knowledge and he’ll leave the service with the opportunity to access higher education without the loans that his older brother has.
For the most part (except for, maybe, bed making and maternal appreciation), these are his goals as well, so I’m thinking this will be a good decision.
My mother also did not want me to join. What does his older brother tell him about the Navy?
Hi Dave,
As I read your article, a few things came to my mind. Please comment your thoughts on my profile. I am a permanent resident and my application of US citizenship is in the progress. I graduated from the University of Michigan in psychology major last year and I am currently working as a full time employee for non-engineering company. But, I have take two semesters for cal and one semester for physics. I am waiting for results of my pre-screening from my recruiter. Basically, I want to join in Navy since I have grown up in military family. My dad served for Korea Navy for 30 years. I would like to serve for US Navy by any chance because I have sent more than half of my life in US.
Since I majored in psychology, you might think why I want to apply for nuclear program. After I graduated and got a job, I really do not know what I want to do. But I am pretty sure that I would like to spent my life in Navy as my Dad did. Why Nuclear program? This is because it is the most payable position and I heard that I could get a job from the large companies that pays us 6 digits after the services. Is this true? I am curious about the jobs for ex-nuclear officers. They are getting high salaries as they serve year by year and they will end it up with almost 6 digits from this program (this might not be true…). So that is why I think ex-nuclear officers might have high salaries after their services. Please tell me if it is not true.
I also found that nuclear officers can have Master degree while serving in Navy, which is a great opportunity for 6 year contract. Do you think it can boost your resume and give you better job after? Beside this, nuclear officers are highly trained through several schools, which are required. Are these helpful for that too?
Last question, do you think I (non-engineering major) can get a position from nuclear reactor? To be honest, I want to be a nuclear officer for aircraft so that I can have more adventures..(this can be false..) I know this has some ridiculous question.. I hope you read my comments. Thank you so much Dave! Your article is really helpful!
The only 6-digit job you are likely to get immediately after military nuclear service is working at a nuclear generating station (power plant). Nuclear trained officers get the same pay as everyone else in the military, which was barely over $30k/year for an ensign (O-1) in 2001. Search for the military pay scale. “Nukes” are eligible for retention bonuses that can increase annual income in excess of $100k once you’re 4-6 years in, but non-nuclear military officers are also eligible for retention bonuses for other reasons. You are extremely unlikely to complete a masters degree while on active duty unless you attend the Naval Postgraduate School, which would obligate you to serve more years in the Navy, or have a very easy and extended “shore tour,” which is never guaranteed.
Navy nuclear training primarily consists of memorizing and regurgitating technical manuals. It isn’t relevant to much of anything outside the Navy, and my personal opinion is that most of the training is not useful to the actual job either. “Highly trained” is less accurate than “highly conditioned,” in the Pavlovian sense. If you see these indications, take this action. If you’re asked this question, give this response using these exact words.
If you seek military service for its own sake, I wish you the best of luck. If you seek military service because recruiters have convinced you that it will fast track your civilian career, I very strongly recommend that you do not join. I agree with John Reed that military service is lost time with respect to a civilian career.
Thank you Dave for your detail answers for my concerns.
As a nuclear officer, can we do something like researching or developing in the industry with commercial nuclear plant after retried? Otherwise, we are only able to do operating nuclear systems? Again, thank you for the prompt response!
The Navy trains operators. If you’re interested in R&D, do not join unless you must have the GI Bill to get a relevant degree.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
I would disagree with a few of the points you made, although only partly. Obtaining a 6-figure salary upon getting out is fairly commonplace at this point and not just in the civilian nuclear community. Having said that a lot will depend on your job performance as an officer on a submarine/surface ship. If you do poorly, your evaluations will reflect that and many of the best opportunities will not be available.
Dave’s update: In the 10 years I’ve been out of the Navy, no employer has ever asked me for my military fitreps/evaluations, although military-to-corporate recruiters likely will ask you for a copy. (See my reply to this comment.) It’s like your first job after college–that’s the only time an employer will ask for your GPA.
Also a lot of corporations and headhunters do look specifically for Navy Nukes. The civilian power industry is a good option, but there is a strong presence in financial services, consulting, and throughout the corporate world. For some perspective you can take a look at Cameron Brooks, Orion, Lucas Group and Bradley Morris (a few of the ‘Junior Military Officer’ headhunter firms). It is true that some firms are just looking for ex-military officers, but the technical background from the Nuclear Navy is highly valued in many places.
You will not get a masters while you’re on the submarine — unless its a SSBN/SSGN but even then its doubtful. You do have a lot of opportunities to get a Master’s Degree on shore duty after you are off the boat (I along with almost everyone I know is doing so currently).
No argument that some of the training resembles Pavlovian conditioning – particularly after sitting through it a dozen times.
In many ways the NUPOC program is a very valuable and beneficial one. It has its drawbacks, but you will have a great deal of responsibility and be given opportunities to excel (or not excel) early in you career and if you do well and leverage your background (and potentially your GI Bill benefits later on – which are a huge deal) it can set you up very well.
Thank you for commenting, Brian. Are you on shore duty now?
I’ve used Orion and Lucas Group. They gave a copy of my fitrep to employers, but the interviewers didn’t seem to lend much weight to it. Civilians aren’t familiar with the ranking system, and the verbiage on a typical fitrep makes everyone sound indispensable.
I currently work in investment research at a hedge fund with about 250 employees, and I am not aware of any other person at the firm with a military background. (People know that I’m a veteran.) I got interviewed because I knew a current employee, and I got the job because I spent a significant portion of my free time learning the language of business and investing while I was still in the Navy. I’m also a former small business owner, and I’ve read economics textbooks for fun. My military experience is completely irrelevant. A degree from an Ivy League or similarly esteemed school and years of industry experience is the price of admission to high finance; most military officers come from state schools and have zero relevant experience. It’s a completely different world with completely different standards.
It just occurred to me that there are more than a few veterans in financial services sales, which can be a six-figure job, depending on the markets. That’s a completely different path than the one I’m pursuing, but I suppose it does fall under the “financial services” umbrella.
The man I relieved on shore tour completed a MBA from a top 5 university before getting out, but we lucked into a very easy job. I’m not saying that it’s impossible; only improbable. Most of the people I know who completed a degree on shore tour completed it at one of the universities that caters to active duty military people. At the risk of sounding elitist, I suggest to you that a degree from such schools probably won’t impress anybody. Neither will a degree in “engineering management” without relevant non-military experience.
We agree on the value of the GI Bill. However, I could have completed a graduate degree much sooner using employer tuition reimbursement if I had skipped the military. Or I could have completed medical school and part of a residency in the five years after undergraduate school. My biggest issue with the military is the opportunity cost, about which John Reed writes at length. That is why I discourage people from seeing the military as a career boost.
The empirically reality is that veterans are likely to pay an income penalty compared to non-veterans, particularly in finance. Check out this recent masters thesis from the Naval Postgraduate School.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
Dave,
Yes I am currently on shore duty. I have found a high level of interest from top firms both via JMO headhunters (I toyed with getting out before shore duty) and since I’ve been on Shore Duty via the NUPOC Career Conference, SACC’s and other venues.
In general there seems to be a high level of interest in the technical and leadership experience, although I will admit that my observations have been anecdotal. As with anything else I’ve seen people who got out and had to put a lot of work in to find what they considered to be a “good” job, but in each of these cases the individual was either strictly limited geographically and had good offers elsewhere that he was unwilling to take, or was a poor performer on the boat and his fitreps and general lack of responsibilities he was given was evidenced by his lackluster resume.
I suppose in summary the case that I would make is that NUPOC is not an elixir to all of your ills, and there are frustrating things at times about the nuclear navy, but that it can be a very effective means of getting leadership experience and responsibility at a early point in the workforce, and if you can time it right and be compensated very generously while your finishing school all the better.
I do think it’s ridiculous the number of people who pursue low-end masters degrees, but there is nothing that requires you do do so. I know several people who are doing Wharton’s weekend program, I am doing a Masters in Finance through Georgetown, and I know of a handful doing programs through Duke and MIT as well.
The one thing I would say for the “low-end” degrees would be that if you can get it entirely covered by Tuition’s Assistance it certainly doesn’t hurt anything and its no cost to you but some time.
My scenario is a bit different than those considering NUPOC as I went to the Naval Academy, but I do think many aspects of the program are compelling so long as you accept it for what it is.
Hi Dave. I stumbled across your article here during some late-night web-browsing and it struck a chord with me and brought back a lot of memories. For what it’s worth, I’ll give a perspective of someone who didn’t make it through the Navy nuclear program. I graduated with a degree in Physics from the Naval Academy in 1995. I felt like I had a really good shot at making it. In my junior summer of training, I rode an Ohio-class ballistic missile sub for 6 weeks, and in my senior summer, I was assigned to a Los Angeles-class sub for a month. The impression that I got was that if you wanted to go to sea, THESE were the folks you wanted to be with! They all seemed to know everything about their boat and took their jobs very seriously.
Toward the end of my senior year, I selected submarines and passed the nuclear interview. I remember Admiral Bruce Demars asking me “Why do I interview people?” I don’t remember how I answered but it must have been good enough for him to shoo me out of his office pretty quickly and approve my selection.
I expected nuke school (then in Orlando, FL) to be challenging, but I have to admit that I struggled. The instructors covered all the topics so quickly! The joke was that each day at school was worth a week at any other school. YOU DID NOT MISS A DAY, no matter what! My typical routine, of course, was to attend the classes from 0700 – 1600 M – F. My recollection was that you got a rather long lunch period (something like 1130 – 1300) which you were supposed to use to work out…or study. At 1600 M – Th I would leave and go back to my apartment for about an hour. I would relax and eat dinner and change into civilian clothes. Then I would head back to school to study, as all the material is classified and had to be studied in the classroom. At the beginning, EVERYONE was required to log 20 hours of study per week (there was a check-in/check-out log). I would typically study from 1800 – 2100 and then go home and sleep. On Friday I remember I would leave at 1600, go to the local video store and rent a few movies, grab a pizza, and just take that night off. I think I would try to take off Saturday as well to run errands and then put in a full day on Sunday to reach my 20 hours. About half-way through nuclear power school, my grades were not stellar and I was advised to up my study hours to 25/week. So I put in an extra hour or so on the weekdays. Not a great and exciting life for 6 months. I considered myself reasonably smart, but just had too much of a problem retaining all the information.
I passed nuclear power school by the skin of my teeth and went to prototype (in Ballston Spa, NY). For me it quickly turned into a kind of hell. I spent the first 6 weeks in the classroom learning about the particular plant that I had been assigned to. Then our class embedded with a crew to get our hands – on training. During this phase, students worked 12-hour days on rotating shifts on a 5 week cycle. Swings would begin on a Wednesday from roughly 1130 – 2330, 7 straight days. I would get off at 2330 on the last day (Tuesday) and sleep through the night. On Wednesday I would be up during the day and force myself to also stay up Wednesday night so that I could sleep during the day on Thursday to try and shift over to nights. I would go to work on Thursday evening and begin nights, working from 1930 – 0730, 7 straight days (nights). I would get off at 0730 after the final night (Thursday morning) and attempt to stay up all day so that I could sleep at night. I would have Friday off and then report to work on Saturday at 0730. I would work 7 straight days from 0730 – 1930. I would get off on the evening of the final day (Friday) and have my first real weekend in 3 weeks. Then I would work an additional 4 days (Mon – Thur) 0730 – 1930. Once this 4-day stint was completed, I would get off on Thursday evening and not have to come back to work until 1130 on Wednesday for the whole cycle to start all over again! “Work” consisted on studying material and then being quizzed by crew members to be certified in that knowledge. I also had to stand training watches in the plant, culminating with Engineering Officer of the Watch (EOOW).
I seem to remember that if you were in good standing on your qualifications that you would be allowed to work 8 hours or so on the last 2 days of each shift period. Likewise (and this happened to me as time progressed), if you get behind in your qualifications, you were “encouraged’ to put in extra hours above the normal 12. In the end, my brain just couldn’t take it and I was disenrolled for “lack of ability” just a couple weeks before my class was to graduate. I ended up being assigned to the “Transient” division at the prototype, where officers and enlisted folks who had washed-out were awaiting disposition. That was the most fun I had in my Navy career! I basically worked from 0800 – 1600 M-F doing office work and was allowed time to work-out at the little gym that was there. In my case, I ended up staying 5 months before being assigned as surface warfare officer and then awaiting the next surface warfare class opening. I believe I had a choice in my assignment, but if you were physically qualified for “line duty” (meaning that the career path could lead to command of a ship), then you had to choose a line duty track (surface warfare, submarines, aviation). In other words, I was not allowed to choose CEC, Supply Corps, LDO, etc.
In the end, I completed my 5-year military commitment (service academies have a 5-year commitment), and then went to work for a large corporation. Looking back on that time, I can offer some thoughts:
1) It is best not to go into the military unless you truly want to serve in the military. There is just too much BS that you have to put up with in relation to the benefit. In my case, I really wanted to serve since I was in middle school, and graduated high school seriously believing I would have a full career in the service.
2) The military does offer some good benefits and financial incentives, but remember that the primary job of our military is to fight wars and you could end up dying as part of that job.
3) I concur with Dave’s point that if you have a sincere interest in things nuclear or engineering, there are less punishing ways to end up with the same result.
4) I am proud of my service and would do it again. I think there are just certain experiences and intangibles that have shaped me for the better that I just wouldn’t have received elsewhere. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t select anything nuclear again though.
5) The military experience has been useful for helping me stay employed. I am a finance analyst now, so the nuclear training doesn’t provide any direct contribution to the required skillset. On the other hand, I think the military has a very good reputation at my company, and the implicit assumption is that junior officers are mature, trustworthy, hard-working, and thick-skinned.
I know this posting is quite long, but I hope it helped someone to make a good decision for their life.
Thanks for sharing, Jim! I wish I received more comments from veterans. The program was nearly identical to your description when I went through in 2001-2002. We swiped our badges in and out instead of using a paper log, but that’s about the only difference.
Dave,
I’m currently in the process of applying to be an NUPOC instructor. I’m still in college and have 2 years to finish. I have a 3.8 gpa ,4 calc courses, 2 physics, & 2 chems. Can they guarantee instructor duty and what would that be like?
Alyssa.
Hi, Alyssa. You would enter the Navy as a Limited Duty Officer (LDO) explicitly for the purpose of serving as an instructor. At the conclusion of your initial commitment, you might be required to get out of the Navy. I’m not exactly sure how that works, but it’s a question you should have answered before signing any contracts.
The Navy’s recruiting web site gives you the basic gist of your initial training. Like all military recruiting, the site makes the job sound more impressive than it is. You would not become an expert on anything. The “highly classified” material, which is actually CONFIDENTIAL (pretty low level), is basically the same as what you can find on Wikipedia these days. The classification comes from details specific to U.S. Navy ships. Nuclear Power School students have to memorize a lot of these details in a short amount of time but, intentionally, nothing is “fast-paced” about nuclear operation. You would never actually operate a reactor yourself.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
Most who choose to transfer elsewhere in the Navy are able to do so.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
To add a bit more detail, you cannot be promised instructor. If you are offered an instructor position and go to the interviews one of three things will occur: (1) you pass and are offered a job, (2) you do not pass and are not offered a job, (3) you are on the edge and they do not offer you an instructor position but are offered an operational position (Surface or Submarines) which you can then either accept or decline.
Hello! Thank you for writing this article and being honest about what this life is like. I will soon be marrying someone enrolled in NUPOC. We will be married for a year before he graduates and ships off to OCS. I was wondering if you were married during your time in the navy or knew anyone who was and could tell me a little about what that life is like for family members, such as how long they’re typically gone, how difficult communication is, if it will change him significantly, and the like. I’m not expecting it to be easy or fun, but I’d like to know a little of what to expect.
I will answer first what I consider to be your most important concern. Yes, military service will change him, and you probably will not like the changes. The military environment tends to amplify certain negative personality traits members already have, and the end result is this.
During the first year of his service after OCS, you will see him everyday. During his sea tour, expect him to be gone 7-10 months of every two years. Six or more months of that will be contiguous (deployment). You can send him e-mail at sea, but you might have to wait a few days for his response.
I don’t have first-hand information about the social dimensions of being a military spouse. Whatever goes on, many civilian spouses seem to inherit the negative traits nurtured in their service member spouses. “She’s a Navy wife,” generally isn’t a compliment. You can probably mitigate the situation by living off base and seeking non-military-spouse friends. Working on your own career will also help you stay grounded.
Thank you for the information and honesty! We were told when he joined that there were only 3 years of active duty where he’d be spending time undersea and the remainder of his commitment is in ‘ready reserve’, where he’s sort of on his own. Did you observe this to actually be the case?
Unless things have changed, his commitment is 8 years, at least 5 of which must be on active duty after commissioning. I spent about a year and a half in training after OCS, 33 months assigned to a submarine, and another 15 months on shore tour. If I had declined a shore tour, I would have finished the remainder of my 5 years on the submarine. After that, I was in the inactive reserves, and I had no further involvement with the military before resigning my commission.
“Ready reserves” are the people who do the “one weekend a month” thing. I can’t tell you anything about that other than to expect to be recalled at some point. It isn’t free money/rank.
I am doing well in engineering and near graduation. I am also ADHD and medicated for it. Do you know if that would be a deal breaker?
I don’t know, but I doubt it. If you’re interested in NUPOC, apply. You lose nothing if they say no.
Hello Dave,
My name is Moses and I am a senior who is planning to major in nuclear engineering. If I major in nuclear engineering is there a chance I can perform research in the military. Since I want to major in nuclear engineering after I am done with the require serve would I be a good applicant in the workforce. The only reason I want to join the rotc is because of the scholarship.
Hi, Moses. You are unlikely to research much of anything in the military. Civilian contractors do that. Navy nuclear experience likely would pigeon hole you into working for an energy company or military contractor. With a nuclear engineering degree, you could probably work in energy right out of school, so why bother with the military? Go in state, keep your expenses low, and get loans. The Navy will pay you, but the debt you incur will be measured in years of your life rather than dollars.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
You should look at BPMI (Bechtel Plant Machinery Corporation) or BMPC (Bechtel Marine Propulsion Corporation for opportunities to do actual research. There are research jobs in the military but the NUPOC program has limited scope in those areas.
Hey Dave!
I know that I want to become a NUPOC to get a ‘foot-in-the-door’ in terms of commissioning in the navy. Being a prior enlisted corpsman I wanted to go to USUHS. However, my current predicament does not allow me to complete the AMA requirements for med school.
Do you know of any nukes that actually ‘crossed-decked’ into USUHS?
Do you think it is feasible to complete the AMA requirements while on a shore rotation as a nuke?
Many thanks,
Jeremy
Hi, Jeremy. I met an officer nuke who went JAG after his sea tour, and I remember at least one enlisted nuke in my OCS class who went non-nuke SWO. That’s it as far as people changing from a nuclear designation.
The guy I relieved for my shore tour completed his MBA during his time on shore and then got out. But it was a very easy job that he held for more than two years and in which he was the senior person on site. Your shore billet would be a big role of the dice after 4+ years of training and sea service. At best, you would be gambling.
What kind of shore billets are there for nukes? I mean there must be a limited capacity in which big navy would allow a nuke to serve ‘on shore’.
I’m not aware of any general pattern for officers. (Enlisted nukes have very few choices, from what I saw. Basically: shipyard, nuclear training unit, or tender.) I did something unrelated to nuclear or submarines. One of my peers did something at the Pentagon. Others had jobs related more broadly related to submarine tactical operations. Your guess is as good as mine at this point.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
There are a lot of shore duty billets available for Nukes. USNA teaching jobs, NUPOC accessions, ROTC, instructor in Power School or Prototype, various overseas billets, graduate opportunities (though you can pursue a graduate degree from almost any shore duty), Pentagon staff, etc.
There are few limits imposed re: shore duty on the officer side of the house.
Hey Dave, hope you are still responding to these but I have a couple of questions. I was on my university career website and this Nuclear Navy Engineer link popped up and I was interested. After “applying” I was immediately contacted hours later by a recruiter. I asked questions such as I have only a year left until I graduate from my current university and if I do qualify does it matter if I still want to finish college. Had all great answers the money deff stands out but what scares me the most is the 18 months of training. This training will be in South Carolina. I was curious that in those 18 months did you have any time to go back to your home to be with your friends and family or are you there 18 months and not being able to go back home? Also, how will you contact your loved ones and can you bring your own cell phone? I’m up for the challenges the school brings as I read it is really difficult but 18 months away from my family and fiancé is something that is hold me back
You probably can’t bring phones into the training areas because they are classified facilities, but you go home every night (or day, sometimes, if you’re on shift work). You can make all the phone calls you want in your personal time.
I think I had two or three weeks of leave in aggregate during my time in the training pipeline. These corresponded to major holidays and time between training phases.
If you join the military in any capacity, you will spend long periods away from your family and friends. If you’re married, your wife will move with you from duty station to duty station, but you will be deployed away from her 6+ months out of every 24 months. When you’re not deployed, you still will not see her as often as you probably would like because you will spend a ton of time at work. The lion’s share of your time will be spent with other military people.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
There is a lot of variance in the amount of leave while in the training pipeline. In my case I had about 6 months, but that was due to a maintenance backup at one of the prototypes. a couple of months in total would be typical, but it can always vary.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
Also you’re not locked up there by any means. My girlfriend (now fiance) lived in Baltimore while I was in Charleston and I saw her twice a month. It wasn’t easy but doable. Was able to maintain something close to that frequency throughout the training pipeline, though with underway schedules there were some long stretches on the boat.
Hey Dave I recently signed up for the NUPOC program and I wanted to know what type of interview questions will you be asked. I’m only a sophomore in college and I see there are a lot of technical questions related to my future studies. Will I be expected to answer questions that I have not taking a course in?
Hi, Kasey. I interviewed after my sophomore year, and I don’t think you need to worry. I don’t remember any of the details about the questions they asked me, but they were basic word problems.
Dave,
First of all, I have read through this article many times, passing it on to those I speak to about NUPOC for their own reading. I was hesitant to comment, seeing as how this article is several years old, but I was amazed to find that you are still being attentive to your works and the questions of NUPOC candidates debating this course in life.
I am a NUPOC applicant currently, going on my NVIP to Coronado from 26-28 April. I am not nervous about the application process at all, I just always wonder if the path I am heading down is the right one for me.
I have my MCAT scheduled for mid-June, and already told my recruiter that I will not meet with Admiral Richardson until I get the results from my MCAT back. My reasoning for this should be obvious. As I was reading, I began to wonder if I could use this as leverage in terms of the signing bonus and rate. Currently, the singing bonus (as explained by my recruiter) is $15,000 – earned at the time of acceptance into the program (as well as a $2,000 accession bonus after NPS in Charleston, SC). Do you think it is likely that this can be negotiated if my packet is strong enough and I warn them of my ability to walk?
As a naive 21 year old, I imagine myself spending a good portion of my life in the Navy – either as an MD (ideally) or SUBNUC (still somewhat sought after). I feel that in either case I will manage financial stability to maintain a family, understanding that orders will sometimes (possibly often) take me away. Currently, I have no financial obligations to anyone or anything. This has allowed me to take the process slowly and consider all options before me.
I have spoken with several sailors, given that several of them are still active, but not all stayed in the nuclear field, and have been greeted with many positive responses about the pipeline. It served to confirm for me that the military is not for everyone, let alone the nuclear field.
One of the warning I received pertained to the “dream sheet.” I was told to select, while young, a place that I would love to live. At a young age, a place that may seem impractical with a family can be enjoyed without harboring much of the stress of maintaining a family there (I’m thinking cost of living in Hawaii, plus a family). But most of these same sailors warned that early on, most of your time will be spent with the ship even in port due to numerous qualifications on updated systems (despite similarities to prototype quals). I wondered then if it would be worth it to go to a place like Hawaii or Coronado, if I would still be able to enjoy the areas despite my schedule. I also considered that I have always wanted to see Europe and the Med. Sea, as opposed to West-Pac, which I feel I would be visiting a lot more if I taken a western port. Given these conflicts, do you think I should consider Norfolk or Grotton and the Med. Sea (where I want to see) vs Hawaii or Coronado (where I would like to see) and West-Pac?
I suppose that is a question of availability at my home-port to enjoy the living area vs a foreign port and the availability to see sights in my time there. Any advice you could offer a naive 21 year old in this regard?
A big part of me either wishes I fail the MCAT so I can pursue this completely, or that I destroy the MCAT so I can pursue medicine (and possibly HSPS/HSCP, much like NUPOC) entirely. It is a medium to above average score that worries me.
Thank you for your service, as a sailor and as one with experience who is willing to share with prospects such as us.
Very respectfully,
Josh
Josh,
I think you are absolutely right to wait for your MCAT results. Don’t let them pressure you into making a decision before you have all relevant information. Regardless of your MCAT score, there is no risk to you if you try to negotiate a higher signing bonus. Everything is negotiable. The recruiters have quotas; you can walk. They would probably act like they don’t have the authority to modify the offer. Tell them, “Okay. Come back to me after you speak to somebody who can make that decision.” Get everything in writing.
You would be more likely to visit the Mediterranean as an East Coast sailor, but please pay attention to what I wrote about seeing the world. If you want to visit Europe in a non-cursory way, you’re much better off buying a plane ticket. That’s a trip you could take between undergrad and med. school. In general, I advise you to live where you want to live rather than where you might, maybe, possibly get to visit a desired port of call.
I hope this helps!
Dave
Thank you for all the great information. I read about half the comments, so sorry if you addressed my question. I am a sophomore majoring in Industrial Engineering. I am considering NUPOC or Navy Civil Engineers. NUPOC pays more while I am finishing school. But I feel like Civil will be a better quality of life and the experience will be more transferable to jobs when I get out. With Civil, I think I might not be on a ship. So no Sea tour. And the work I would be doing, would hopefully be transferable to industrial engineering. Not sure that the Nuke work would be considered. I know you only did NUPOC, but do you have any advice on Civil and if my assumptions are correct. Thank you very much!
You’re welcome, James. I think CEC could translate to a civilian construction manager job, and I would not expect to find CEC sailors on a ship. Consider my input on CEC to be hearsay–it’s based entirely on sparse conversations I had at Officer Candidate School with classmates who were going that route.
You should be aware that CEC includes the “Seabees,” who are likely to be in areas of combat. Make sure you don’t let a recruiter sell you on a desk job when you would actually be helping to construct an airfield or base in a hostile area.
Full disclosure: This commenter is a NUPOC recruiter stationed at Naval Recruiting Command in Millington, TN.
CEC Officers generally do a portion of their tour with the “SeaBees” and a portion with the various maintenance departments throughout the Navy to allow them to be exposed to both major aspects of the community. My understanding is that they will end up focusing predominantly on just one side of that coin if they choose to stay in.
Hi Dave thanks for posting so much you have answered a lot of my questions about this program. I am a senior in high school and was looking into the military. I had some questions on what happens if you flunk out and how many people actually make it in this program because the recruiter told me that nuclear engineers were in high demand but it seems like a lot of people qualify for it? Also I have two friends who have already signed up what is the likely hood of us getting to see each other once we are in? Thanks for helping.
My training pipeline class had 60-something people; one attrited during the classroom phase, which is the first six months. The enlisted classes are bigger, and I don’t know the enlisted attrition rate. When an enlisted sailor attrities, he might be sent to another training program (“A School”), sent to the fleet will no additional training, or processed out of the Navy. An enlistment contract typically guarantees some initial training, and it should state what happens if you attrite from that training.
You would see your friends during your first year of training (A School and Nuclear Power School). After that, you may or may not see them the following six months during nuclear “prototype” (hands-on) training. All bets are off after that. You will see them if you have the same home port, which is something you can request. But nothing would be guaranteed.
Dear Dave,
I am a Junior Mechanical Engineering student with a 3.4 GPA and an interest in all things that move; cars, boats, planes, anything someone can drive or fly. I was drawn to the Nuclear Propulsion Program by the idea of working with a nuclear reactor, one of the most advanced power systems on earth, but am now more wary for having read your article and the comments above.
I like to design, improve, and tinker; merely being an operator sounds pretty awful. But it just doesn’t make sense to me that the Navy would pay someone to learn for a year and then send them out to do nothing more than make sure dials don’t move. Could you, without divulging national security secrets, give me a better idea of exactly what being on-duty for a reactor entails? What has to be done to keep the whole system operating, and how intellectual is it? How much tinkering is involved?
Thank you so much for your attentiveness to this article and for writing it in the first place; informing the decisions of young men and women in a segment where it is easy to be swayed by romantic ideals is a fantastic service.
Hi, Brad. As I mention in my article, you will not research or design anything while in the Navy. Ditto for “tinkering.” Officers frequently operate exactly two pieces of equipment–announcing circuits and the periscope.
The Navy is self-regulated by Naval Reactors (NR), and continuous training, much of which isn’t immediately useful on the job, is part of appeasing the regulator. Search for “cheating on submarines.”
Reactor operations revolve around procedural compliance. You need enough theoretical and practical experience to recognize indications of abnormal operating conditions, and you need to know where to find the procedure for addressing such conditions. That’s about as intellectual as it gets. The plant requires periodic maintenance–adjusting water chemistry, changing filters, etc.–but it is all very routine. Honestly, the experience of standing watch I describe in my article is about 90% of what you will do.
Dave,
I want you commend you on your attentiveness to this article. Not many writers keep answering comments to an article 5 years later. Way to go.
I don’t have any questions but I wanted to comment on some of the pros I have seen so far being in the NUPOC program. My wife and I are both engineers and over the past two years we have had loads of fun because of the program, several trips to Hawaii, a bareboat charter in the bahamas this spring, and not a worry about money. By the time we graduate this spring we will have just over 100K in the bank thanks to the US NAVY.
Your right though, this is not the easiest path to money, but it was never meant to be. You got me a little discouraged there for a little while, I started thinking to myself “oh crap, what have I signed myself up for”.
I soon realized that yes your are right, if you joined the Navy for benefits are thought it was going to put you light years ahead of everyone else after, your gonna hate it, but if someone joins because they love nuclear power, they want to wear that Navy uniform, and the enjoy the benefits as an added bonus, then it could be a good match.
Maybe I’m just trying to make myself feel better about my situation but I can’t help think of one of the comment you made “and my Navy experience is directly responsible for my current occupation.”. Obviously it affected you in a positive way if it opened up to you a job that you chose.
Am I excited about my next adventure in the Navy? For sure. Is it going to be difficult? Absolutely. You nailed it, I have traded being locked into a career for financial security and stability.
Just wanted to put in my two cents.
On a separate note, you may have mentioned it above, but where and what in did you get your degree? If it was in engineering, specifically mechanical, how was power school different than your degree? (in difficulty and course work).
Thanks for all the info
Hi, Landon. I’m glad you’re enjoying the perks, and I hope your enthusiasm for the program remains strong as you pass the impending milestones over the next 5 years. My intention is not to discourage anybody; it is to provide what I think is a fair description about what to expect from the NUPOC program and nuclear Navy. If you find that you love nuclear power and the Navy for their own sake, in my opinion, you joined for the best reasons.
The Navy was responsible for not one, but two, of my previous jobs. That is less of a compliment to the Navy and more of a truism. Your current job almost always is an excellent predictor of your next job. I “chose” those jobs, neither of which interested me, is the sense that I “chose” not to be unemployed. I have since completed a Masters degree and made a career change so I no longer have to use my Navy background as a credential.
I completed a B.S. in math at a large state university and an M.S. in computer science from a mid-sized private university. The primary skill I needed for my math degree, the ability to manipulate equations to demonstrate understanding of concepts, is the same skill that I used in the engineering (mostly EE) and physics courses I took. Power School, and nuclear training in general, primarily revolves around the ability quickly to memorize and regurgitate verbatim “key words and tricky phrases” (and a bunch of setpoints and other numbers) from technical manuals. Comparing the experiences is kind of apples and oranges.
Hi Dave,
What your doing is really great and helping a lot of people. I had a few questions of my own and would really appreciate it of you could help me answer them.
1. I finished a nuclear engineering degree with a 3.1 and it took 7 years. I had a few classes I had to retake that were D’s and F’s. I messed up in school quite a bit. Once I was focused and figured out something I wanted to do, I was able to fix my grades a bit. What do you think my chances are in getting into the NUPOC program as submarine officer? Would I have a chance at surface? Do you know why that 1 interviewee was not considered?
2. I read somewhere that submarines stink. Like the smell in a submarine doesn’t wash off you for weeks. Do you get enough shower time and soap on a submarine?
I’ve been out of school for a little over year and been unsuccessful in finding something that would give me experience in my field of study. I’ve been working low pay jobs that have nothing to do with my degree to get by. As much as I am not looking forward to some of the things that i learned about the program there is one thing that you have that I envy greatly. I envy your job, even though you may think it’s boring and repetitive. That’s hugely the whole reason why I wanted to do nuclear engineering. so I can help run reactor. Shoot if someone offered me $15/hr to do any position in running a reactor I would take it in a heartbeat. I’m that desperate at this point. All I’m getting are jobs that pay like $9/hr 🙁
Thank you, Ben.
1. I have no insight into your odds, but you risk nothing by applying if you think NUPOC might fit your goals. The admiral rejected one person in my interview group. His interview was the final consideration after the recruiters’ screens, and I cannot say why he gave the thumbs down. The admiral doesn’t ask technical questions. It must have been something about the interviewee’s demeanor.
2. You heard right. The distinctive smell is amine. It’s in the air, and clothes you wear on the ship will reek of it. You can shower as often as you want, but that will not be everyday. You bring your own soap.
Good luck!
Hi Dave,
Great to hear the uncensored version of what NUPOC is like.
About me:
31 years old, Mech Eng degree, 3 yrs civil service working for USAF, now completed an MBA. Lots of student debt due to MBA
Years ago went through USAF ROTC boot camp equivalent. Loved the culture, enjoyed working civ service, military is generally very good fit for me.
Thinking of joining NUPOC as I enjoy operations, want to serve in the military, and do something more meaningful than the corporate jobs that are available to me now.
Background for my question:
Not looking for feedback on fit/lifestyle/career satisfaction. I’m mainly concerned about the pay. I have a well-paying job now (>$100K) and also lots of debt. I feel I need roughly $80K starting out to meet my financial needs/preferences.
The recruiter (whose motivations I understand well) said he knew an O-3 dept. Head nuke SWO who at 5 years in was making $240K.
That sounded ridiculous, so I asked an F/A-18 Pilot I know (10 years service) and he said it could be ~$100K first year, probably around $160K after 10 yrs, depending on role.
I calculated as best I could from the current bonuses, salary, BAH in -Norfolk/SD/Bremerton that my year 1 gross salary would be $70-80K.
You said you barely cleared $30K your first year, and then made it to ~$70K by the time you left
My questions for you:
Do some of your bonuses etc. not come until after your nuke training? i.e. you get regular O-1 salary until you’ve been in for a year (once you finish prototype, etc.)
On that same topic, if I went surface instead of subs, would I have to wait almost 3 years for my nuke bonuses? i.e. until I finish my first sea tour on a non-nuke ship, and then come back and finish nuke school.
I believe you mentioned in a previous post that “everything is negotiable.” Just wondering if I would have any success negotiating a larger signing bonus, or trying to negotiate them paying down some of my (non-federal) student loans?
Last one: I worked just over 3 years for DoD as a civil servant. Will I be able to negotiate to have those 3 years count towards my initial salary? i.e. go in as an O-1 step 3 instead of an O-1 step 1.
Would very much appreciate your thoughts on this! I’ll use your input to adjust my approach to the recruiters, and to counterbalance their exuberance a bit.
Thanks in advance,
Mike
Mike,
See the military pay scale chart, which is linked in my article. Your salary is based on rank and time in service. I have no idea where the pilot is getting ~$100k the first year. You would not make anything close to $80k your first few years. The recruiter’s story about an O-3 making $240k is a pure lie, which you can also see from the pay scale chart.
You would be eligible for “rent a nuke” or “buy a nuke” around your 5th year, which is a retention bonus for nuclear trained personnel. Other than your NUPOC signing bonus, there are no other bonuses. If you’re sure the military is right for you, I encourage you to negotiate the signing bonus as you describe. I can’t promise that they will be flexible, but there’s no downside to walking away if you already have a good job.
I’m not sure how civil service figures into military service, but I’m pretty confident telling you that it will have no effect on your salary. The more likely scenario is that it would be a factor in your retirement benefits. For example, if you serve 20 years in the military, you would receive retirement benefits as if you have served 23 years. The Navy will not negotiate your salary.
Thanks!
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the wonderful and informative website. I have a few questions:
1. Could you give a schedule of a typical day for you during your time tied to the sub, both when you were in port and when out to sea. Like maybe an hourly type schedule? I keep hearing that the days are varied but that always leaves me asking: varied doing what exactly?
2. When moving from one location to another (if you shift home ports say), how much time do you have to move and rearrange your life before you must begin work again?
3. What occurs if you fail out of power or nuke school as an officer?
4. What occurs if you fail to complete your undergraduate degree in the time frame the navy expected?
5. Are you familiar with any Surface Officers that may be able to give advice and their experience through the pipeline? Specifically about the conventional ship tour?
Thanks for any help on these questions and for the website in general.
Best,
Gabrielle
1. Whoever is telling you that you would have variety is lying. The military is all about routine. You will do exactly what I describe in the body of my article and little else. The only variety would be minor variations on when exactly you do these things in a given day.
2. You take “leave” between duty stations. Typically, you’ll have 1 to 3 weeks. I took nearly two months between leaving my submarine and showing up at my “shore tour,” but that isn’t common.
3. You get reassigned. My class only had one guy fail out, and I think he became a Civil Engineering Core (CEC) officer.
4. I’m not sure. If you are still on track to finish, they would probably give you a waiver after threatening you. The worst case scenario is probably that you would have to serve an active duty enlistment. (You actually enlist as “active duty for training” when you enter the program and are still in school.)
5. I am not. You could try contacting your local veteran organizations to see if they can refer you to somebody. I recommend against contacting ROTC offiers because they are unofficial nuke recruiters.
Wow. I just stumbled on your article and it hit me like a ton of bricks. I’m a mechanical engineering student in the NUPOC pipeline and I was absolutely positive that it was what I wanted to do until now. If I was to be perfectly honest, I chose to pursue a military career because I have this idea that it would fix the things that I don’t like about myself, that it would make me more assertive, confident, and decisive. Exactly how naive am I being here? I also talked to a fraternity brother of mine, he was a nuke electrician on subs for 10 years and he told me two things about being a nuke: “it is the hardest thing that you will ever do” and that the nuclear community “is really good at taking smart, unmotivated people and turning them into smart, motivated people, hence their retention problems.” Both of those things appealed to me since I’m feeling pretty aimless at this point in my life and I’d like to know your thoughts about those statements. Finally, you obviously regret your choice but is there anything of value that you took away from the experience?
Hi, Jose. Navy nuclear training, and probably any kind of military training, will condition you to stand straight and speak loudly. That gives people the initial impression of confidence, but it’s a facade. In my opinion, the military will do little to ensure that you are an effective manager/leader, and confidence without competence is really just arrogance, which is the primary quality I expect from people who choose to remain in the military beyond an initial obligation.
To answer your question bluntly, I would say your motivations are very naive. If you want to learn to be more assertive, confident, and decisive, get a summer job as a commission salesperson. After the first 100 times that you’re told to go to hell, you’ll start to realize that it doesn’t really affect you the way you probably fear. Life gets easier after one loses the fear of rejection.
Something isn’t good for you just because it’s hard. Being a nuke is hard in the way that serving a prison sentence would be hard; not like the way getting a PhD at MIT would be hard. The important question is, “Will being a Navy nuke get you where you want to go?” If you don’t know where you want to go, I recommend you not lock yourself into a 5 years long committment that will subsequently set you on another career path that might not be right for you.
I invite you to send a link to this article to your veteran nuke friend. As I understand his comment about retention, which is based on my years of interactions with enlisted nukes, he’s telling you that being a nuke motivates you to discontinue being a nuke as soon as possible. Perhaps I’m wrong, as he stayed in for a decade. Most people who comment on this article are college students, and I would be interested in hearing from more veterans. Note that your friend is a college student, just like you, but he’s significantly older. I had a similar experience in graduate school, where most of my graduate peers were 10 years younger than me.
NUPOC paid for half of my undergraduate education, and the GI Bill paid for my masters. I have remaining education benefits that I could use to get other degrees. That’s what I got from it.
Hey Dave, I was accepted into Navy OCS for Nuke, SWO, and Supply, but I haven’t signed anything, yet.
I found your comment about post-Naval opportunities to be distressing. I was told by the recruiter that being an officer ‘opens doors’ to the CIA, FBI, and beyond. I guess that’s not true.
The more I look into this topic, the more I find that officers, in all branches are a dime a dozen. Industry only wants them because they know went throw some tough sh*t to get through their first tour. Certainly being an officer is honorable, but it’s not a distinguishing factor in employment of one’s potential future.
I have a job that pays 55k right now, I’m thinking of staying. Thanks so much!
Hi, Jon. See my comments from 24 February 2012 about federal hiring and what veteran status is worth.
Revising my article again is on my “to do” list. The older I get, the more I agree with John Reed that military service is simply lost time. The military conditions its officers to behave like the Pointy-Haired boss–career managers who are heavy on acting authoritative but don’t actually do much. Some large corporations want workaholic bureaucrats, and military officers are a good place to look for such people.
Yes, well it’s a shame.
I think the military only works for certain personalities, specifically those who don’t have the intellectual curiosity to question authority. Also, those who stay in for life are well compensated.
However, the economy sucks, I can see why the military doesn’t have to advertise much anymore.
Appreciate that, Dave.
Also, shaving…I get pretty bad razor burn and therefore rock the stubble by using a trimmer with no guard every other day. Will that fly in the USN? Again, little things.
You would have to request a “no shave chit” from your commander, which is a written exemption from the rules about shaving. He would not be obligated to grant your request, and I don’t know the criteria. I can tell you that submariners generally are not obligated to shave while out to sea. This isn’t written; it’s a tradition. People grow handlebars and whatever else they want.
I am considering the NUPOC route and am wondering how much would my sex life take a hit if I joined. Having sex frequently is important to my well-being. Taking the girl out of the equation (just assume you have a girlfriend with similar needs always close by) and focusing purely on obstacles the Navy would provide, how frequently would one be able to spend time with a female companion in the following stages:
– OCS (12 wks)
– NPS (6 mos)
– Prototype (6 mos)
– Sub School (13 wks)
– Tours
– Remainder of commitment
How would that differ going carriers versus subs?
The devil is in the details, and I’m trying to figure out how little things about being a nuclear officer will impact my day-to-day life.
I can’t make any promises about how being a nuke would affect your particular brand of pimpage. You could spend all your free time with women but, in general, I suggest to you that the military is a horrible environment for meeting anybody who is not in the military. You will almost always spend 60+ hours per week at work, and you will sometimes have a rotating schedule. Pursuing outside interests other than exercise will be difficult, and your daily routine will involve classified materials, so you won’t have much about which to talk. I don’t think carriers would be much different, but I never served on one.
Hi Dave, thanks a lot for posting this great info. I’d like to give you some details on my situation and hear your thoughts on it if that’s okay. I am currently 27 and attending college part-time working towards my BS. Due to a number of financial and personal reasons, I was not able to complete college immediately after high school. I had always thought about and desired a career in the Navy, but for those same reasons did not pursue that immediately after high school either. Given my age, it is difficult to get “back on track” with everything, but I could do so with my current strategy of full-time work and part-time college. However, with this strategy I am looking at another 6 years of PT school and FT work as I cannot afford to go FT school. In addition I’d be coming out of it with a sizable amount of debt, and would not be able to pursue a physics/science degree due to scheduling but would have to take another degree that fits around an adult schedule.
When I read about NUPOC it seemed like it may be a great alternative. I’d be able to major in science, complete school in just a few years, and get into the Navy like I had wanted to years ago, all without any debt. But I do have a few questions before I make my decision. One is age. I read that while you must complete school and be commissioned by 29 for the program, you can get an age waiver to extend that to age 32. Do you think the Navy’s demand is high enough that I’m likely to get the waiver? My next question is how does the timing of school/commissioning/pay work? Once you sign up do they pay in advance so you can complete school then do OCS? Or do you have to complete school completely on your own accord then sign up and get reimbursed? If the former, do you do any military training/reserve duty while in school prior to your graduation and transition to active duty?
I apologize in advance if you’ve already answered these questions, there were a lot of posts to read on here and I have not gone through all of them yet. Thanks so much for taking the time to read and give feedback to everyone!
Also Dave I meant to ask, how much choice do you have in carrier vs sub?
If you’ve long wanted to join the Navy for its own sake, I think NUPOC could be a good route for you given your situation. It’s a delayed commissioning program. You would enlist and be “active duty for training” while you go to school full time, during which time they would pay you a salary. As soon as you sign on the dotted line, you’re entitled to whatever signing bonus they’re paying these days. After you graduate, you go to OCS; after that, you report to Power School as a new officer.
The oldest person in my OCS class was 34, but he was prior enlisted. I have no idea if you would need a waiver or if they would grant you one. That varies by year.
Search the comments for “aircraft carrier.” Somebody else asked me about that, I think in 2010. Good luck!
Hi Dave,
I am in a similar situation as you were in – I am considering using the NAVY as an opportunity to pay off student loans for my undergraduate studies. In a previous post you mention that if you had the opportunity to do the NUPOC program again you would have chosen another route.
My question is, would you recommend enlisting in another rating (either from what you saw working in the subs or friends from the NAVY) or would you have avoided the navy route entirely and opted to pursue a civilian job if you knew what working in the NAVY was like (note: I already have completed my B.S. degree).
-Adam
Hi, Adam. Please see my comment dated 19 FEB 2014, 5:34pm regarding if I would again join the Navy. Short answer: I would have avoided the military entirely.
What are your job prospects with your degree? Junior enlisted people receive very little pay. See the military pay scale, to which I’ve linked this article.
Dave,
Ahh sorry, missed that post of yours. Thanks for reiterating it though. I have a degree in applied mathematics from a top public university. I was mainly interested in the NUPOC program because it seemed interesting to get to work with and understand the nuclear energy on the ships/subs(I am interested in the theoretical side of math/physics areas) , but from your post it seems that the work is not all it appears to be on paper.
I am willing to put in the work for A school/power school, but if the work is truly as tedious as you mention, the financial benefit would not be enough to motivate me (let alone the 6 year commitment). Would you say that at the very least the material (i.e. curriculum) you learned in the NUPOC program was interesting/valuable and that during active duty you were able to use what you learned – the most important aspect for me when considering enlistment in NUPOC is that the nature of work be fascinating/rewarding than anything else. (I think I remember you posting that you hardly used anything you learned in power school during active duty)
-Adam
My undergraduate degree is also in math. Abstractly, I’m still fascinated by nuclear energy. A U.S. nuclear-powered submarine built in the mid-80s or later remains in service for around 30 years and never has to refuel. That’s amazing! However, concretely, working with the techonology is every bit as dull as I describe.
Academically, Navy nuclear trainees live and die by their capacity for verbatim regurgitation of technical manuals. Individual preference is relevant here, but I found it impossible to enjoy this type of “education.” During the execution of your duties on a ship, the theoretical stuff is generally not useful (except during the written tests to which you will be subjected as long as you are in the Navy) for the same reasons that knowing all about combustion engines will not make you a better driver.
I see. The only reason I was considering enlisted was simply because enlisted qualifies for loan repayment program (65,000 off of undergraduate federal student loans).
I don’t know too much about the GI bill, is it more beneficial to forego LRP and keep GI benefits (one must pick one or the other). Also, I’ve heard the OCS is brutal to get through, is that accurate?
-Adam
My OCS class had 60-something people in it, and only one person dropped on request (DORed). I remember at least one person being medically disqualified the first week. The hardest parts of OCS for me were the sleep deprivation and being sick all the time. (See my conversation with Garielle from January 2014.) The experience isn’t something anybody would ever want to do again, but it’s generally not a roadblock.
I’m not familiar with the loan repayment program you mentioned. Perhaps visit gibill.va.gov, read the benefits section, including annual limits, and plot out financial projections in a spreadsheet. You can see from the DoD pay scale chart (linked here somewhere) what you would get paid as an enlistee, and you can compare that to what you think you would get paid as a civilian (see glassdoor.com, payscale.com, etc.). For the term of the prospective enlistment plus whatever period of graduate school you are considering, see what path gets you closest to where you want to go.
Thanks Dave, great post. You mentioned the long hours worked by nuke officers. My question is: what do those consist of, other than standing watch? And when the ship is in home port, how do the watch schedule and the nuke officer duties change?
In addition to standing watch: qualifying to stand other watches, paperwork, formal training, listening to your rank superiors bloviate, etc. Once you’re fully qualified, honestly, you will spend a lot of unproductive time at work looking busy just because the schedule says you’re supposed to be there. The military generally will not respect your time. (In fairness, neither will a corporation, which is a derivative of the military hierachical structure.)
In-port watch standing duties are similar to at-sea duties in terms of content. In-port, you will sleep on the boat every 3 to 5 days, often including weekend days, and you will work at least 7am to 4pm (0700-1600) Monday through Friday because that is the nominal Navy work week. At sea, you will usually stand watch for six hours at a time with 12 or 18 hours between watches.
No doubt, always a gamble when you delay getting paid. I was just pointing out that most military members I have come across view the retirement as pitiful without realizing how much they would have to make/save to have anything close to it.
I was wondering if you could weigh in on what my recruiters told me. I was told that if I have a 3.3 or higher in my calc and physics based calc classes that I am guaranteed the interview. From there nothing is guaranteed but well over 80% make it through the interviews.
In my situation I would be taking on debt to do this next year, but I would much rather give it a shot than simply enlisting as a nuke. Especially if the chances are that high, and if it didn’t work out I could go with Plan B and join as an enlisted nuke.
A little bit of background I first went off to college and got a 2.2. Came back and did some growing up and did an Air Traffic Control degree and got a 3.8 gpa. The FAA has changed their hiring policies so I am not eligible for hire (it used to be the only means for getting hired).
Would those previous grades hurt me in the selection process as a pursue a degree in Computer Engineering which is completely unrelated to the 2.2? My recruiter said the current 3.3-3.5 GPA is all I’ll need.
Do you have any thoughts on this?
I think your recruiters are telling you the truth. To the extent that recruiters lie to officer prospects, it is generally by omission rather than false statements. They have strict quotas, and they wouldn’t bother with you if they didn’t think it worth their time.
I’ve also heard veterans say that military retirement benefits are not as great as advertised. Perhaps the relevant insight here is that the investment returns to get the same benefits aren’t the appropriate basis for making a decision. You will miss out on many life opportunities if you join the military just like you will miss out on life if you spend all your time at a civilian job. The difference is that the military requires a workaholic lifestyle, whereas civilians can explore other options.
You make very good points about military life. Furthermore you make great points that if the military is only a stepping stone there are other avenues worth exploring… that being said. You will NEVER make as much money anywhere in the private sector as you will as a nuke officer, UNLESS you go to a target school and get into investment banking or columbia law school.
Allow me to explain your compensation package, at the 6 year mark you were an 0-3 pay grade which meant:
64,983.60 Base salary
23,652 BAH (varies based on zipcode)
2,911.2 BAS (food)
3,360 (Healthcare costs that you do NOT have to pay)
17,500 (annual retention bonus per year, though amount subject to change)
Your total pay = 112,406.8
But it gets better….. you only pay taxes on your bonus and base. Which means 82k is taxable. So what would your civillian pay need to be to have the same take home after taxes as the navy?
And it gets better. Your retirement, in 20 years you are eligible for 50% of your base pay, up to 75% at the 30yr mark (inflation adjusted I might add). For some reason military members always talk about how little that is. You can easily hit a base of 95-100k if you stay in as a nuke officer for 20 years.
Currently CDs payout at 1.65% on the 5yr, which means you’d need 2.8mln in cash by the age of 42/43 to have the same retirement….. so back to that pay.. 2.8mln/20 = 140,000. Its also important to mention that most people in the private sector work until they are in their 60s, you’d be done in your early 40s and average life expectancy is 80 years old. So you’d get 40 years of freedom, and also don’t forget very few people making even close to the money you get in the military get even half your vacation benefits.
So your actual compensation at 6 years in was $252,406.8… but how much would you need to make in that tax bracket to be able to sock away 140k per year on top of all of those other bonuses? Not to mention passing along your GI Bill to your spouse or child, leaving college with no debt, never getting laid off (assuming you are a performer).
I am currently pursuing the NUPOC program, I have a few more quarters until I am eligible to apply (need calc based physics) and I am good to go. I read a study that indicated less than 17% of service members truly understood the value of their benefits.
Do not mistake my post as criticism or sarcasm. You make very valid points. It is very misleading that a Navy career or other military career will translate well into the private sector, it is also grossly untrue that the pay in the private sector is even remotely close to military. Keep in mind that for every officer there are roughly 9 or more enlisted men, most of whom are below E-7 paygrade and the average compensation package for currently serving active duty military was estimated by congress to be 99k per yr.
In any event, just my thoughts and wish me luck in this process. I am taking on some debt to do the school and if it doesn’t work out I’ll be going enlisted nuke.
Good luck in the program, Matt. I do not take your comments negatively, and I think your numbers are accurate for immediate compensation. I caution you against thinking of your annual compensation at 6 years as $252,406.80. What actually matters in terms of your quality of life is how much money you take home today; I didn’t take home anything close to that. You could get forced out of the military for any number of reasons long before you reach 20 years. Do not consider that retirement pay as a foregone conclusion. Any time you wait to get paid, you’re gambling. That isn’t specific to the military. I always prefer to get paid today.
Financially, military personnel are trading opportunity for security. If you work in commercial nuclear, you will also make a lot of money and have similar retirement benefits. You could complete medical school before the end of your minimal military obligation and residency not long afterwards. M.D.’s do pretty well financially (although they suffer long hours and rotating shifts like military people).
Howdy! Thank you for the insight and the information. I am currently a nuclear engineering major but not sure if it is what I want to do. Is what you say based on just your own experience or do nukes in general see it as a boring, monotonous job? My main reason for joining would purely be for money. I have no problem with regimented life, being physically fit and doing a lot of work as long as the work I do feels satisfying(for lack of a better word). I am currently at a senior military college and I don’t think military life would be a problem but I’m not sure about being a nuke. Also, what is the difference between enlisted and officer nuclear engineers in terms of work? Thank you for your time.
Respectfully,
Rishi
Hi, Rishi. Yes, what I wrote is based on my experience and, yes, I’m confident that nukes generally will tell you that nuclear operation is a boring, monotonous job. It is exactly as I describe; I haven’t left out any secret thrills or perks. I leave to you to decide if that work would satisfy you. I’m also confident saying that the people who chose to continue that line of work do so for the money.
Your physical fitness likely will deteriorate more and more the longer you are on a submarine. Just keep your eyes open if you take a tour. You’ll see what I mean.
Officers and enlisted men stand different watches, but the lifestyle is basically the same. Officers do more paperwork; enlisted sailors do more menial labor and maintenance, such as changing light bulbs, changing filters, checking oil levels, etc. The 6-on/12-off rotation applies equally. Enlisted nukes do very little outside the engine room (reactor plant). Officers generally spend less time there as they become more senior.
Thank you for the honest and quick answer. I was hoping that the military would allow me to stay in shape. Just as a personal question, was it all worth it for you in the end? My main reason for this is to pay for college. Also, I know you sort of answered this in a previous question, but is nuclear power instructor a viable option from the get-go or is that for more experienced veterans? Again, Thanks for your time.
See my comment dated 6 February 2010. Start with the sentence, “With some years in hindsight . . . .” (A lot of the beginning part doesn’t apply anymore because my interests have changed.) I joined the Navy primarily to remain at an out-of-state school. If I could change the past, I would have left my undergraduate alma mater, finished my bachelors degree in-state, and avoided the military entirely. If I still needed money for in-state, I would have worked while attended classes part time. Almost nobody cares where you went to school once you’re in the working world. Don’t believe university advertising or rankings; just get the paper, and move on. I agree with John Reed that military time is lost time unless you want to do something very similar when you get out, and I have never wanted to do so.
See my comments from 22 August 2013 concerning the instructor position. I’m not sure what you mean by “viable.” It is a different path than the one I followed, and you can be a power school instructor right out of undergrad. You can also do what I did and instruct as your “shore tour.”
Thank you for all this good information, I am a recently graduated chemical engineer and the main reason I am joining NUPOC os for the money and the future opportunities. One recruiter told me that close to power school is a university that recognizes the material I will learn and if I take 2 more classes there then I will earn a masters in material science.
As a chemical engineer working on pumps and heat exchangers is exactly what I studied for. Since NUPOC trains people in these aspects, how much of what I learn can be translated into real world experience that I can put on my resume or would I still be considered a entry level engineer in the civil sector?
Hi, Jake. When I went through Power School, it was in Goose Creek, SC, and the only college in the area about which I ever heard was the College of Charleston, which is a liberal arts school. It sounds like recruiter B.S. to me; even if it isn’t, you will not have time to take other courses. Search other comments about schools that give credit for nuclear training. I’ve responded to that before.
Nuclear training is about operating, not engineering. You probably will not learn any theory about pumps or heat exchangers that you didn’t already learn in school. However, you will spend lots of time memorizing when to tell other people to turn them on and off and what to do if the equipment breaks while the plant is up and running.
The resume utility of Navy nuclear experience depends on the type of job you want to pursue afterwards. If it isn’t operations management or nuclear related, I suggest that looking elsewhere would be a good use of your time.
Hi Dave,
I hope all is well with you and thank you for this website. I was wondering if you could give me some idea of what OCS is like, how long it takes to complete, etc.?
Best,
Gabrielle
Search YouTube for “Navy OCS,” and you will find a couple of videos. I skipped through the top video, and it accurately portrays the activities in which officer candidates engage. However, I advise you to watch such videos on mute. They’re full of ignorant statements by trainees about how valuable the training will be in the fleet. There’s some legitimate training at OCS (ex. fire fighting), but mostly it’s just indoctrination (a.k.a. brain-washing) and exercise.
OCS was 13 weeks long when I went through in 2001, but the video from 2012 states that it is 12 weeks long. I don’t know if this is an error or if they’ve actually shortened it.
If you go to OCS, expect to be sick most of the time. That’s something the videos don’t depict, and it makes everything harder. When you bring people together from all over the country and suppress their immune systems with constant exercise and sleep deprivation, everybody gets sick.
Thanks for the quick reply. I hear that there are “evolutions”? That people can end up there for a year? Is that true?
Officer candidates have various graded activities, and failing two of them results in a candidate getting “rolled” to a less senior class to repeat training. This typically sets people back 1 to 3 weeks. If a candidate gets injured, he or she can end up on medical hold until cleared to join another class. The medical scenario could lead to a prolonged OCS experience, but it is not typical.
Hi Dave. I am a chemical engineering student graduating this coming May, and I have been interested in joining the military for a couple years now. My reason for doing so is the chance to serve and collect some life experiences I could carry with me forever. My initial gut was to go with the Air Force, but I found out they wouldn’t take me because my eye sight fails the DoD standards and because they are overbooked on junior officers. Then, I considered the Army, but I guess they are pretty full on junior officers too.
This NUPOC program may be my only chance because the navy consistently needs people for this job and because my grades are really good, so they might be willing to waive medical standards and let me in. However, I just cannot imagine myself living for months on end at sea, especially in a submarine. Plus, I don’t care that much about getting into the nuclear industry, and money is not my top priority, which seems to be the main selling point for NUPOC.
You seem like a really sharp, down-to-earth guy who can offer me some advice with my dilemma, which is this. Before I settle down into a regular life, I want to have some truly intense challenges and experiences, which might include boot camp and some crazy hours and some travel to foreign places and some training with weapons – I would like to have a military experience. I am terrified of going directly from college into a job and spending the rest of my life never feeling like I really did anything. Being young and single, I figure this is the time to do that thing. You know I mean?
As far as I can tell, being a submariner may be my only chance at doing something with the military. Unfortunately, from what I have read, it is one of the worst possible jobs in the military, and people usually go for it when they are strapped for cash, which I am definitely not.
What you might be thinking is that I might as well just invest in some travel opportunities (like the Semester at Sea), and I have thought about those, but I am still pretty dead set on something with the military – I want the satisfaction of serving and really being a part of something big.
I imagine a lot of people have entered the military feeling this way – I expect it worked out very well for some of them and very poorly for others. For someone who is very familiar with NUPOC and able to look at it objectively, do you someone like me should be at all interested in the program?
Hi, Jeff. From what you’ve written, I think you would regret joining the submarine force. Recruiters have quotas, and they play games to steer people towards whatever job they need to fill at the moment. If you’re interested in another military branch or a particular program, tell the recruiters it’s that or nothing. If you’re genuinely able and willing to walk away, you’re more likely to get what you want. You still have years of military eligibility remaining if you decide not to join right after school.
I advise you to chat with veterans of any other military programs you are considering to decide if their experiences match your expectations. I hope you will not take this defensively, but you strike me as having a very “Hollywood” impression of military service and the United States military’s role in the world. That’s a red flag that you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.
That is just about the answer I was looking for. And, no, I don’t take the Hollywood accusation offensively because I have seen way too many movies for me to look at military service objectively (plus, the military sells it pretty well).
I guess I am mainly frustrated over the current status of the military; the current job market sucks, and we are no longer at war with anyone, so they are being so picky about who they take. I really think I could have been satisfied with the Air Force or maybe even the Army, but they do have to operate within their budgets.
Oh, well. Thanks for your help, Dave – and thanks for your service to the country. Have a Merry Christmas.
Hi Dave,
I hope all is well with you. Thanks for the wonderful, thoughtful, honest and fair website. First some background on my situation and then some questions:
Background:
I graduated June of 2013 from Princeton with a BA in Philosophy, towards the end I discovered I really liked Physics so I returned home (Chicago) to pursue a BS in that field. I’ve considered NUPUC as a way to pay for school and as an interesting a fun experience to have before going on to either grad or law school.
Questions:
1. If one was absolutely going to do NUPUC, Nuclear Submarines, Nuclear Aircraft Carrier, or Reactor Engineer?
2. You say you were only able to save around 100k over 5 years and only cleared 30k your first full year in. What other uncovered or undisclosed expenses might one have to consider when evaluating the monetary side of things?
3. Did you make or build any meaningful relationships during your time in the Navy; do you have friends from that time in your life you still talk to?
4. Is it that do you think you could have been doing what you’re doing now, without having done the Navy? Or would you still have had to spend ~5 years in some “entry-ish” level position with or without the Navy?
Again, thank you for all of this, it’s great what you’re doing in providing the information that is hard to get.
Best,
Gabrielle
Hi, Gabrielle.
1. If I had to do it over again, I would probably go carriers. For whatever that’s worth . . . .
2. Military people have the same expenses as everyone else. (And rent is high in Hawaii, San Diego, etc.) The “expense” I urge you to consider is the opportunity cost.
3. I’m Facebook friends with some of my former shipmates, but I don’t actively keep in touch with anybody from that era of my life. That is a matter of preference. I’m sure plenty of other people do.
4. I could DEFINITELY be doing what I’m doing now without being a veteran. Navy nuclear experience probably isn’t relevant if you don’t want to be in operations, including the nuclear industry. Consider that one could finish law school, medical school, or complete a PhD in 5 years. If you know now that you want to go to law school, for example, just go. Military service would only guarantee that you will be older before you begin doing what you want to do.
If your financial considerations override all else, consider that the Post 9-11 GI Bill is available to anybody who serves in any military branch in any capacity, and other paths require less than 5 years.
Have you already started a physics program? I know computer science graduate students with BAs in English and no other degrees. From what you’ve written, I’m wondering why you want to pursue another B.S.
Thanks for the quick and thoughtful reply.
To answer your question: I would like to attend a top law school or graduate school and it seemed unlikely that I’d be able to get into a solid graduate school with a Philosophy degree and no real research experience especially considering that my grades were not too hot at Princeton. However, now that you mention the possibility of going straight to grad school, I am returning this summer to Princeton to do research so that may help my cause if I were to apply to a graduate program ~Oct 2014, however in that case I would be matriculating in Sept 2015, in which time I would have been able to polish off a B.S.
In any event, I hope that answers why I’m pursuing the 2nd undergraduate.
I suppose part of my desire to join the NUPOC program would come from a desire to have a bit of a resume builder. Plus, the added benefit of school being paid for and the chance at a somewhat unique experience. I figure I’ll only be around 29 or 30 by the time I’m out with money in the bank and any further schooling I want to do paid for. But I do understand where you’re coming from, 5 years isn’t chump change.
One follow up question: How likely is it (if one is able to get shore-duty) that one can get a MS from the Naval Postgraduate School during their time in the Navy?
In my opinion, there are exactly two good reasons to join the military: 1) financial reality (a.k.a. the “economic draft”), or 2) you strongly want to serve in the military for its own sake. From what you’ve disclosed, I do not get the impression that you meet the second criterion. Consider that anything you do as a new graduate will build your resume, but having things on your resume is only useful if that helps you do what you want to do. I have plenty of operations management on mine, but that doesn’t help me do anything I want to do.
Navy nuclear service will not provide you with research credentials. I also faced this dilemma when I looked into graduate education, only I was 10+ years older than I assume you to be. Although highest-tier schools want research experience, plenty of good schools don’t. You could apply to a masters program elsewhere, get the experience while finishing your M.S., and then head towards a PhD. In your case, maybe there’s a place for you in UI’s M.S. program.
If you want to go to Naval Postgraduate School, you can, but you will incur additional obligations to the Navy. I think it’s one year for every year you spend in school. Other people have asked me about it recently. Keyword search for those conversations if you care to read them.
Hi Dave,
I’m currently in Ballston Spa and have been on-crew for a few weeks now. Should really be sleeping right now, but some parts of your article piqued my interest. I may have missed it, but what did you get your Masters degree in? Also, if you don’t mind me asking, what was your pay for those first civilian positions after leaving the Navy?
I’d like to respond to more items in your post, but I have this page bookmarked for the future. Aside from the, “The Stupid Shall be Punished,” blog I really haven’t seen post-hand reports of the submarine officer experience.
Nick
Hi, Nick. I hope you’re staying ahead of the curve without too much difficulty.
My M.S. is in Computer Science–paid in full via GI Bill. I will use my remaining GI Bill benefits to obtain a PhD or another Masters in something else.
I had a civilian nuclear job that started at just over $100k and another in the biotech industry that paid $33/hr with time and a half over 40 hours. That’s ~$68k annually for straight 40-hours weeks or around $95k at 50 hours/week. I got both jobs through military-to-corporate recruiters. In both cases, I was surrounded by retired military people who ensured my civilian work environment was too similar to the military environment for my taste. That was the dominant factor in my decision to return to school and do something else.
Concerning the nuclear job, it is important to note that the unionized “plant operators,” many of whom were recent college graduates, were also making close to or over $100k a year. I got that job because of the Navy, but Navy nuclear experience is not a prerequisite.
Dave,
I appreciate all the great information you provided here. I have only one question that I haven’t seen answered elsewhere. When in college in the NUPOC program, are you paid housing and food allowances? I have read that you get all the benefits of the USN but am not sure if these are also included.
Thanks,
Chris
I received housing allowance; I don’t remember if I received food allowance (BAS), but I probably did. If you join the program, you will actually enlist in the Navy, receive an ID card, and be classified “active duty for training.” You should receive all the benefits any other enlisted person receives.
Thanks again. This has been very helpful.
Thanks for sharing your honest experience with the NUPOC Program. I graduated from college in 2012 with a degree in Chemistry. Frustrated from not finding a job with my degree, I decided to join the Navy. My recruiter told me about the NUPOC program and thinks I will be very successful in the program. But from your experience and others, I think it’s wise for me to research more into the program or better yet find other career paths. I think I will do the latter. Thank you once again for this great post.
You’re welcome, Isaac. Good luck with your search.
Hi Dave,
I am not sure if you answered this question in your previous comments but I have decided to discontinue with the NUPOC program as advised. Now, my plan is to serve for atleast 5 years as active duty officer (get college loans paid for), save money and then serve as a reserve officer afterwards to enable me attend pharmacy school which I am hoping the Navy will pay for(GI bill). I will then commit fully to the Navy and work as a Naval pharmacist as a career. My question is, from your many years working as an officer in the Navy, which of the Naval officer jobs would you recommend. I know it depends on my preference but which jobs seemed less stressful or which of your fellow officers (other departments) seemed to enjoy their job the most. I am discontinuing with the NUPOC program but don’t know which job to choose.
I can only comment with authority on the submarine community. All officers on a submarine are nuclear trained with the exception of the Supply Officer, also known as the “Chop” (I don’t know why). The Chop doesn’t have to endure any nuclear training and doesn’t stand duty in port. That is definitely less stressful.
You don’t have to serve in the reserves to qualify for the GI Bill; it is an entitlement. As long as you meet minimal requirements (honorable discharge, etc.), the benefits are yours. Civilian pharmacists commonly start near or above six-figures. What would you gain by returning to the Navy?
Dave,
Thanks for your quick response. I will definitely look into other officer jobs. My decision to return to the Navy after pharmacy school is to move up in the ranks whiles working as a military pharmacist. Serve for 20 years and then retire with all the benefits.
Hi Dave,
I’ve recently passed my phone interview and I’m waiting on the DC interview schedule to be finalized (the government shutdown is taking its toll). I’ve been hearing about Naval Postgraduate School opportunities while in the Navy. Do you know anything about this?
Thanks,
Alyster
Hi, Alyster. I remember my recruiter comparing NPS to MIT “for what it’s designed to do,” which is a completely meaningless comparison. I don’t know much about it, but I will tell you that most civilian employers are unlikely to consider any sort of military training to be relevant to what they do. (Possible exceptions are large military contractors.)
To attend NPS, you will have to finish your initial commitment and consent to years of additional military obligation. It’s usually at least one year for every year you spend at NPS. (If you graduate in two years–during which time you’re still in the Navy–you owe another two years after that.) Alternatively, you could finish your obligation and attend a civilian university using the GI Bill.